Padded Armour

[Daniel S Peterson]

It was my understanding that the point of the libyan hide was to waterproof the felt. Rain will go right through hamata and soak whatever the ungarment is unless it was protected. Thin leather impregnated with fat forms a waterproof barrier. This is why the Romans used leather tents instead of the cheaper linen, which would fill with water and then be too heavy for a mule to carry.

There is a fine quality of goatskin from north africa called "morocco" and I thought of this when I first heard the term Libyan hide. We may never know for sure however.

I would also echo the previous comment, that while many of the things in DRB were submitted as "new" ideas, the author makes it very clear that the felt subarmmallis was used by the Romans in "antiquity". Perhaps it had been discontinued in his time because the regions where felt was commonly made were no longer accessible.

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Dan,

How thick was the leather that you saw?
My view towards that 'extra garment' would be - since rain would go through any armour, why was this not worn over every undergarment.
Or why not use a cloack?

[Daniel S Peterson]

It was a soft supple leather, quite thin, but strong, used to make a kind of American military visored cap in the 1830's.

[Crispvs]

I'm not sure if this has already been brought up in this thread or not as I am in a bit of a hurry and haven't the time right now to read back over it all, but has anyone wondered whether the Libyan Hide might not have been worn over the mail while the thoromachos was worn underneath it? The hide would protect the mail from rust damage whilst the thoromachos would protect the man from concussion damage. Is this too simple an explanation? Thirty years ago, Robinson pointed out that a number of the 1st century AD Rhineland tombstones showed mail which was covered by close fitting overgarments. This fact seems to have been ignored by most commentators since, apart from the occasional person who suggests that the scuptors wanted us to think that these smooth surfaces were evidence that the sculpters weren't keen on depicting mail (despite consistantly doing a very good job on a narrow strip visible below the smooth surface and above the bottom of the tunic). Could the Lybian hide of the DRB be the overgarments seen on the Rhineland tomstones? If the thoromachos was ancient why should the "Lybian hide" not be just as ancient?
As to covering armour with a cloak to keep it dry, this is fine when not involved in combat, but, having tried fighting in a cloak on a number of occasions, I can testify that it does nothing during a fight other than getting in the way. Thus a closer fitting, yet flexible, protective covering would be useful for protecting the armour from environmental damage under battlefield conditions, especially on campaign.

I haven't read DRB so thus I confess ignorance of most of its contents, but could it be that the innovation might be the wearing of a thoromachos and a coat of Lybian hide WITHOUT a coat of mail separating the two?

I apologise if I am doing nothing more than ploughing up old ground here.

Crispvs

[Praefectusclassis]

the sculpters weren't keen on depicting mail (despite consistantly doing a very good job on a narrow strip visible below the smooth surface and above the bottom of the tunic)
Crispvs

Is it? On which ones?

[Crispvs]

Jasper,

The photos I was thinking of don't seem to be in Robinson after all, apart from Gnaeus Musius. I must have them in another book. I'll have another look.
However, to quote from Robinson, on pge 164 of 'The Armour of Imperial Rome', he says:
"...the Osuna reliefs (fig 175). The left hand figure wears lorica hamata, and his companion would appear to be wearing a fabric garment over his armour."

Page 169:
"...the stele of Caius Castricius in the Aquincum museum at Budapest (plate 470)...wears a short sleeved waist length shirt without shoulder straps... The absence of shoulder straps is not very remarkable, for there are a number of auxiliary grave stelae from the first century showing loricae hamatae covered by close-fitting tunics with the edges of short sleeves and the skirt visible below. Where only such a small amount of mail could be seen the sculptors made some attempt to represent the rows of alternating crescents, which developed into wavy lines (plate 471 [Pintaius])."

Further down page 169:
"Lorica hamata worn beneath another garment but over the regular tunica is frequently shown in representations of standard bearers such as the aquilifer Musius of Legio XIV Gemina at Mainz and the signifer Pintaius of the Cohors V Asturum at Bonn. Musius wears a leather garment cut into pteruges below the waist, with the upper part crossed with straps into which are fastened a pair of torques and nine plain phalerae. On the shoulders are a series of overlapping metal plates with short pteruges over the sleeves of the lorica (plate 468)."

I am not convinced about the "overlapping metal plates" but apart from that I think Robinson's observations hold true.

Crispvs

[Praefectusclassis]

Hi Crispus,
Those wavy lines are best visible in the imagebase on Pintaius and Musius (not so much on Castricius. However, on Musius they look to me like frills on the shoulder straps as they only extend a set distance over the tunic below, not up until the edge. On Pintaius, it does look like he has a couple of extra layers.

[mcbishop]

Other good examples of the wavy lines are Firmus and an unnamed fragment in the Magazin at Bonn (where I saw and photographed him back in 1982). Both figures have a double border above the wavy lines (Pintaius is unfortunately damaged at the crucial point), so there are various ways of interpreting what we are seeing. One way would be to see the wavy lines as a fringe for the arming doublet, the first border the hem of the a.d., and the second border the bottom of the mail shirt. Certainly, wavy lines as a shorthand for mail on sculptures of this quality would not be my first interpretation, but one could argue that we are seeing mail worn over a tunic, with some sort of overgarment (which Robinson rather illogically hints at). As ever, you pays your money and takes your choice, squire.

Mike Bishop

[John M McDermott]

Here are tests using a fabric subarmalis in conjunction with mail.



http://es.geocities.com/cotasmalla/test2.htm

[Crispvs]

Thanks John. Very interesting.

Crispvs

[FAVENTIANVS]

About that test, what if the iron plate were curved and had a gambeson behind? :?

[tlclark]

I picked up on this thread because I am looking at images of pteruges on the musculata.

Consensus is that they were leather, but I doubt that. Many show rumpled pteruges that indicate stiff cloth and not leather as in this example:



larger image:
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... odet2a.jpg

Elsewhere when we see pteruges, they have crosshatching, indicating stitching or weaving, indicating that the example is intended to be cloth or cloth covered.



Larger image:

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... ndet3a.jpg

This lead me to this thread where felt has been argued as a material for the subarmalis. With this evidence I think we should consider that pteruges are also felt or felt covered in cloth.

If both the subarmalis and pteruges are felt, then they can be made of the same piece of material. The bottome edge of the felt is merely cut to make the pteruges. The double row is also easily constructed. Imagine a subarmalis with two layers of heavy felt. Each layer is made of felt but the pteruges are cut so as to be staggered and overlapping. I think the trim on most of the images indicates that the pteruges were at least edged or covered in cloth, but I think that felt fits the characteristics of the pteruges better than leather does, at least as we see them in art.

[aitor iriarte]

Good hypothesis, Travis!
But don't forget that each one of the two layers is composed out of up to three superimposed layers (I doubt that they were staggered, anyway...)
About your second pic, sculptors were able to polish marble to mirror-finish and they've left pterugae rough... :? Maybe they were made of felt or cloth after all... In case they were made of felt, a sandwiched layer of cloth would be necessary yet (Like in leather pterugae) for making the fringes...

Aitor

[tlclark]

Good hypothesis, Travis!
But don't forget that each one of the two layers is composed out of up to three superimposed layers (I doubt that they were staggered, anyway...)

Thanks! It's true that there are probably more layers than just two. My best guess is that we are looking at two layers of cloth covered felt/or leather. Also, thinking about it, your right about staggering. In fact, I can't even argue that there are only 2 layers. A lot of statues seem to have four or five layers! The number of pteruges on the statuary is mind-boggling, 40, 60 and 80 or more!

About your second pic, sculptors were able to polish marble to mirror-finish and they've left pterugae rough... :? Maybe they were made of felt or cloth after all... In case they were made of felt, a sandwiched layer of cloth would be necessary yet (Like in leather pterugae) for making the fringes...

Aitor

True. Perhaps its like a composite sandwich with cloth/felt/cloth/felt,/cloth/felt/cloth!

Actually if you look closely (it's hard to see in the photograph) it's not just left rough but deliberatly incised with cross-hatched lines. It's very careful and intentional.

The other thing that mystifies me about these is the edging. Nearly all pteruges have an edged border. This looks like they were edged in another material, maybe leather, like the way so many re-enactors edge their hamatae. but if you edge all three sides, how does the fringe work? It's very ambiguous.

BTW - Good luck on your talk about footwear! I wouldn't worry about your English. In fact, I think you should give it in Basque and make THEM feel inadequate!

Thanks again.

Travis

[tlclark]

Update:

A felt distributor in NJ is sending me swatches of their industrial felt in 1/4 and 1/2 inch thicknesses. The felts are "industrial" strength and are 50% wool.

Might be a good subsitute for heavy felt/subarmalis reconstruction. I will let everyone know what I think.

Here's the site...

http://www.thefeltpeople.com/

Travis