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Padded Armour
#61
Quote: There is anecdotal evidence for the use of linen as armor: the Greeks used it and it was subsequently used in medieval subarmalia.

Hi John,

In early medieval times, wasn't a subarmalis called a "Gambeson" ?

Museum Replicas is now selling them :

[url:27e6mo7b]http://photobucket.com/albums/y25/RCasti998/museum1.jpg[/url]

(Grr....I forgot about the image restrictions :evil: You can just click the link then)

I wonder if this could be converted into a subarmalis.

Theo
Jaime
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#62
To claim "the Romans had no felt" is ridiculous. The Fayum scutum was covered in felt, and traces of felt linings have been found in Celtic, and I believe Roman cheekpieces and helmets. The De Rebus writer mentions felt. How could he if it didn't exist?

Edited by Aitor Iriarte. Please remember the rules link from old RAT
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#63
The issue I raise is whether felt is felt.

Any trace of wool might be interpreted as felt and not be felt as we know it. Not all wool filler would be felt, but it might appear to be so after centuries.

Felt on a shield is not the same as wearing felt.

I believe felted wool is made so through a distinct process, though I know nothing about it. Did the Romans have the process of felting, or, as in the case of naalbinding vs. knitting, did they use other forms?
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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#64
Dan:
Quote:The Fayum scutum was covered in felt

This is not a given fact. It is an assumption, and the material in discussion may well be the same fibre material as can be observed on some of the Dura shields, which is, according to S. James, probably tendon and glue.

*edited by caiustarquitius, because information no longer necessary (see above)* Smile

Is felt felt? That's why I asked for the term in the original language. What else could it mean?

Quote:1.Inter omnia, quae ad usum bellicum provida posteritatis cogitavit antiquitas, thoracomachum quoque mira utilitate ad levamen corporisarmorum ponderiet asperitati subiecit.
2.Hoc enim vestimenti genus, quod de coactili ad mensuram et tutelam pectoris humani conficitur, de mollibus lanis timoris sollicitudo sollertia magistra composuit,...
De Rebus Bellicis 15
Thanks, Aitor Big Grin
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#65
You're welcome, Christian! Big Grin
An I must add that the job of felt-maker (coactiliarius) is attested in the sources but again I'm not at home now. Any help for this? :wink:

Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#66
Huge quantities of felt have been preserved in Scycthian graves, and in appearance it seems identical to modern wool felts, even to include vidid colors. It was unquestionably widely known and widely used in the ancient world, but due to its perishable nature rarely found today. I suspect felt is the "most ancient" of all "fabric" if it can be termed as such. I believe the famous "Pylos" cap, from which the shape of the helmet of that name was developed was actually described in an ancient source as being made of felt, and likely many other forms of ancient headgear as well, including as least some versions of the "pannonian cap" were as well.

I still do not think there is any evidence of padded/filled linen garments worn under armor in the ancient world save for interpretation of period art which is speculative at best. Of course, there is the layered linen armor of Classical Greece, so no reason a padded armor couldn't have existed, for event stone age, mesoarmericans discovered it, but a surer bet would be to use something actually mentioned by ancient Roman writers as to what was worn under armor.

Regrettably, good quality, thick wool felt is very expensive today, probably because it is such a rare, specialty item with few uses in our modern world. For the Europeans, I recommend checking out the Hungarian sources, where it cannot be too expensive if they still make whole tents from it. The event where we saw it is held each year in what was Roman Savaria (forget the Hungarian name). I believe this source would become even cheaper the further east you travel. Another idea would be to make it yourself, for it is a much simpler process than weaving.
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#67
The 'Stowasser' names 'coactum' as 'Filz', which is felt. However, as with many other terms, it might not actually describe the material we think of nowadays. Deriving from 'cogo', it might also refer to what we in Germany call 'Loden', a material first woven, and then felted (?) the areas of Noricum and Raetia the material is known and used since antiquity.
To generally assume that the Romans must have known and used felt is far to naive, I think. Taking into account, how long it took for certain working methods to travel, it is at least possible, that, while in the east it was used, in the west the technique was unknown. In the early middle ages, it took the technology of the plow which turns soil upward down several hundred years to travel through the whole of Europe. Felting seems to be a far easter invention.

I do not want to say, that it is impossible that the Romans used the technique, but it is at the moment impossible to say when and where.




@Florian:
They have colored felt made from wool-rests. It is about 8 per meter. I used it for my subarmalis. Will you come to our next meeting? Long time no see Big Grin
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#68
I plan to make my subarmalis out of two layers of modern red felt, stuffed with wool and quilted. My pileus pannonnicus is made out of a felt core covered in astrakan.
I think that Romans used felt but, of course, I cannot say that I know it :wink:
I would be very useful if some ancient source would tell us something on the coactiliarii's trade.! 8)

Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#69
You can criticize the evidence for a padded linen subarmalis as being misinterpretations of ancient sculpture. However, this goes to the weight and credibility of the evidence, not the evidence itself. The evidence exists, without question, in that the sculpture exists.

The same may be said of the evidence for "felt". There is anecdotal evidence of its existence in ancient times. Probably, the Romans had contact with it, but maybe not. The interpretations of the materials found may or may not be correct. Evidence exists, but its weight in proving a certain proposition is open to question.

How many garments are made completely or mostly of felt? It is not used, I believe because it is not a sturdy fabric. Felt tears and cuts easily in a soft, unhardened form. Hardened, it provides good resistance to penetration. However, in a subarmalis, it must be left in a soft, pliable form. Such a garment would be easily destroyed or damaged. It is not susceptible to laundering. It must be covered to be durable, but by what? The text quoted says "Libyan hide". What is "Libyan hide"? Why not say hide? Why qualify it by saying "Libyan hide"? Was "Libyan hide" plain ordinary hide or hide of a special type or hide at all? Hide is hard and rigid if left in its natural form. How could a subarmalis be constructed and worn of something with bone like hardness?

Linen and hemp are tear resistant and puncture resistant in a soft form. They are launderable. They breathe and are wearable, whereas hide, leather and felt are not.

You can construct your subarmalis of leather and felt and wear it next to me, while I am wearing mine of hemp and wool filler. Then let's see who passes out first. Let's see who's is more durable and cleanable.
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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#70
John wrote:
"You can construct your subarmalis of leather and felt and wear it next to me, while I am wearing mine of hemp and wool filler. Then let's see who passes out first. Let's see who's is more durable and cleanable."

I like your suggestion to test different attempts at reconstructing a subarmalis.

After all, this is a part of what reenactment is all about! Big Grin
Try to reconstruct something and test it, then talk about your experiences and probably make it better the next time.


You are right that we do not know exactly what kind of felt the term 'felt' meant. On the other hand, a subarmalis does not only keep armour from chafing but should also absorb blows.
Now what is more suited for distributing the shock of an incoming blow ?(let's say on a coat of mail). I honestly just don't know, and I have never tested this, but I think 'felt' or several layers of felted heavy wool fabric stitched together might be safer than just two layers of fabric filled with wool.

As to the danger of overheating - I have to admit that I do not have much experience with wearing subarmales. The one I have is a so called "medieval gambeson" ( :oops: ) for amateur reenactment ( :oops: :oops: ) which I converted to my use (it's now short sleeved and ends at the waist, not at the knees). This "gambeson" is made of two layers of fabric with a filling of synthetic wool.
(I know this is not authentic, but guess why I want to make a new one!!!)

The "gambeson" keeps my Newstead in place and prevents chafing, but I still think it is too thin and I wish it would be more dense at the shoulders, where the weight of the shield (carrying strap), of the helmet (fixed to the lorica), of the furca, of the spatha, and of some of the lorica is concentrated.

It does NOT breathe very well (you might even say not at all), probably because the fabric has a large content of synthetic fibre. When I take off my equipment, this gambeson is usually soaked with sweat, regardless whether I walked for some hours or just stood around in the sun. Nevertheless, I did not drop down dead (yet). Perhaps even if the torso is completely covered, evaporation is sufficient as long as the legs, the arms and the head are bare.

Just my two denarii...


Caius: I'll do what I can to be present at the next meeting ! Looking forward to it - and the shaft of my lance is still at the provincial capital.
Florian Himmler (not related!)
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#71
Quote: The text quoted says "Libyan hide". What is "Libyan hide"? Why not say hide? Why qualify it by saying "Libyan hide"? Was "Libyan hide" plain ordinary hide or hide of a special type or hide at all? Hide is hard and rigid if left in its natural form. How could a subarmalis be constructed and worn of something with bone like hardness?
That's my point about DRB. The author has all kinds of 'bright' ideas, which seem good thinking at first (let's keep all those poor grunts dry) but are impractical when put to the test. Same with the scythed chariots (help, a tree Confusedhock: ) or with the 'caltrop' plumbata (plumbata et tribolata) which would of course hurt the feet of the own troops as bad as they would the enemy's. :?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#72
Quote:Dan:
Quote:The Fayum scutum was covered in felt

This is not a given fact. It is an assumption

Dan is quite right - Kimmig is very specific on this:

'Der fertige Schild ist dann auf beiden Seiten mit einer dünnen Schicht von Schaffilz[3] verkleidert worden, von der sich noch große Teile erhalten haben.

[3] "Das sogenannte 'Leder' ist ohne Zweifel Filz aus Schafwolle. Diese Verwendung des Filzes an einer Schutzwaffe ist durchaus angebracht und absolut nicht von der Hand zu weisen. Der Filz besteht aus unendlich vielen einzelnen Wollfasern und ist bei weitem elastischer als Leder, das durch einen Hieb mit einem scharfen Schwerte gespalten werden kann." (Bericht v. Stokar.)' Kimmig, W. 1940: 'Ein Keltenschild aus Aegypten', Germania 24, 107 with n.3

The 'v. Stokar' cited was Walter von Stokar of Köln, and since one of v.S's books was Spinnen Und Weben bei den Germanen, it is not unreasonable to assume he knew felt when he saw it!

Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#73
Can somebody translate it, please?
[Image: 120px-Septimani_seniores_shield_pattern.svg.png] [Image: Estalada.gif]
Ivan Perelló
[size=150:iu1l6t4o]Credo in Spatham, Corvus sum bellorum[/size]
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#74
Quote:'Der fertige Schild ist dann auf beiden Seiten mit einer dünnen Schicht von Schaffilz[3] verkleidert worden, von der sich noch große Teile erhalten haben.
The shield was then padded on both sides with a thin layer of sheep felt, large parts of which have been preserved.

Quote: [3] "Das sogenannte 'Leder' ist ohne Zweifel Filz aus Schafwolle. Diese Verwendung des Filzes an einer Schutzwaffe ist durchaus angebracht und absolut nicht von der Hand zu weisen. Der Filz besteht aus unendlich vielen einzelnen Wollfasern und ist bei weitem elastischer als Leder, das durch einen Hieb mit einem scharfen Schwerte gespalten werden kann."
The so-called 'leather' is without doubt felt from sheep's wool. The use of felt on a defensive weapon is normal and not to be discarded. The felt is made from an infinite number of single wool hairs and is much more flexible than leather, which can be split with one stroke of a sword.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#75
According to a`Babelfish translation:

"The so-called ' leather ' is without doubt felt from sheep wool. This use of felt at a protection weapon is not to be pointed quite attached and absolutely from the hand to. Felt consists of infinitely many individual wollfasern and is by far more flexible than leather, which can be split by a blow with a sharp sword."

Hence I never typed Marcus Junkellmann's books into Babelfish :?

Cheers.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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