Padded Armour

[tlclark]

This is the oldest example I've ever seen of that 'blunder'.

Aitor, you're positive it's a "blunder"?

The definition of a "blunder" in this case is "Evidence that doesn't fit my theory" :wink:

Aitor - just kidding!

Travis

[aitor iriarte]

Travis,
Usually yes but... how did all those fellows raise their arms? hock: :? shock:

Paul,
Is there any better pic of that carving? 8)

Aitor

[tlclark]

Travis,
Usually yes but... how did all those fellows raise their arms? hock: :? shock:

Paul,
Is there any better pic of that carving? 8)

Aitor

Well there are three possibilities:

1.) This is accurate, which means that the musculata is definitely leather and far more flexible than we think.
2.) This is accurate but is not meant to be a musculata, but a tight fitting form of armor, maybe mail or padded armor, or squamata, and the details were painted on, but now lost (there are a lot of items like this on the Column of Trajan that might be mail shirts, or subarmalia, or what have you, but we just can't tell since all traces of paint are gone.)
3.) It's a goof.

I think 2 is the most likely, with later examples of this blunder creeping in during the later periods because we see a lot of variance in Musculata, with muscutala/squamata hybrids and the what not. With a lot of different variant types and the noted increasing stylization in art, variations like this are a lot more probable. The same feature is on the Honorius diptych, which I've only really got a close look at recently.

Travis

[aitor iriarte]

Quote:
The same feature is on the Honorius diptych, which I've only really got a close look at recently.

Travis, how close a look? Do you have fresh new piccies...? 8)

Aitor

[Caballo]

Mithras wrote "Has anyone seen this before? Its from a building inscription of the 20th legion from Bremenium (High Rochester) north of the Wall. It depicts Mars. Looks like a subarmalis to me! "
Very interesting, and I agree. Also very remiscient IIRC of the De Rebus Bellicis illustration. Could you give any more info on this sculpture eg date etc?

Cheers

Caballo

[Mithras]

Travis,
Usually yes but... how did all those fellows raise their arms? hock: :? shock:

Paul,
Is there any better pic of that carving? 8)

Aitor

Building inscription of the 20th legion. 'The insciption reads A detachment of the Twentieth Legion, styled Valeria and Victorious, made this'. Mars, the God of War, on the left and Hercules on the right. The boar between them is the symbol of the legion. Mars is dressed in full armour, bearing a spear and shield. Hercules is represented as fully grown and bearded with massive muscular frame. He carries a club and a quiver full of arrows with a lion skin on his shoulders. They are soldiers', not 'artists' sculptures

occupation at Bremenium ended around 340 AD

pg293 Hadrian's Wall in the Days of the Romans, Frank Graham & Ronald Embleton 1984

[tlclark]

Quote:
The same feature is on the Honorius diptych, which I've only really got a close look at recently.

Travis, how close a look? Do you have fresh new piccies...? 8)

Aitor

Oh no. I just got a book out of the library. Sorry.

Travis

[aitor iriarte]

Thanks, Paul and Travis!
I've got a copy of Graham & Embleton book. I was rather thinking of a real photo... :wink:

Aitor

[Marcus Mummius]

Might it be that Mars is wearing a padded armingcap under his helmet?
The structure of the thing under his helmet looks a lot like the vest he is wearing.


Kind regards,
Jef

[tlclark]

Stylization vs. representation!!

It's an age old battle, like Coke vs. Pepsi, Hulk vs. Superman.

We may never know the answer.

My gut tells me we are seeing stylization here for the hair and that that is not an arming cap. The lorica/subarmalis is very strange, so strange it might actually be an attempt at interpreting armor. Mars, iconographically is nearly always shown in a musculata though, so I can't figure what they are doing. Considering that the iconography for the Herakles figure is dead on from what we know of Lysippan models the Mars looks even more bizarre by comparison.

Travis

[Crispvs]

To me it looks as if Mars is wearing an armour of the type which is often taken to be subarmali but I suspect might by a small metal breatplate (or in this case possibly a pair of breastplates such as the small locking breastplates known from late second and early third century sites, with a heavy kilt of padded pteruges which starts above the waist and heavy pteruges at both shoulders with some sort of metal or thinkly padded fabric shoulder doubling, which gets us nicely back to padded armour. I have seen several representations now which could be an armour of this sort, which would give a high degree of flexibility and could still reatain a good level of protection. The small breastplate would give rigid protection to exactly the spot which the Republican pectoral plate protected. I think an armour like this could be worn by either cavalry or infantry and I am sure I have seena photograph of a damaged statuette of a mouted soldier wearing what appears to be such an armour. Unfortunately I did not save the picture when I saw it.

Crispvs

[drsrob]

Perhaps you mean the Stèle of Vonatorix of the ala Longiniana?

[Caballo]

This may be interesting. The image (from the mid-4th century House of the Nymphs in Nabeul, Tunisia) appears to show a soldier in subarmalis without the usual covering armour. The mosaic builder shows the body and pteruges at waist and shoulders of clearly different materials- I would guess leather for the pteruges.

No metal armour is worn over the top, as shown by a a separate mosaic in the same house. Here, "Agamemnon" is shown wearing a metal cuirass over the subarmalis, and the mosaic builder clearly shows the sheen of the metal. "Agamemnon"- dressed in red tunic, white under tunic with purplish clavi and feminalia is a long way from Greece!




The subarmalis design with its shoulder and chest straps is also remarakably similar to the late Roman silver dish posted earlier.

[Flavius Promotus]

And now to something completely different...

Question: Can a padding vest function in a secondary role as an improvised field mattress?

Answer: Yes, but don't expect it to be too pleasant! (hay is more comfortable to sleep on) Nevertheless, it works
(Guess it's a question of getting used to it)

[tlclark]

Florian

Great shot.

A scutum as a tent. That's classic.

But I also noticed the shoes. Do you have a pattern for those?

Travis