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Junkelmann/Stroh vs Strategikon re Commands
#16
Quote: I wasn't aware that the Strategikon had any commands in Latin.
My copy is translated from original Greek. :?

The Latin commands are simply transliterated into Greek.
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#17
Salvete,
first: there are still enough members of Junkelmanns Legio XXI Rapax on the way. Last time a part of this troup were seenable at Kalkriese ("battle of Varus") in germany.
second: "Matt and Leg XX represent ..using the only surviving roman..." What surviving roman? Like we already said, Maurice was from Kappadokia and wrote it for the byzantine army in the 6th century.

Also if we dont look at the geographical and cultural differences between these, we have to look for the multiple reforms in the years between.
Junkelmanns Rapax reconstruction show the augusteian legion. Not only the equipment also use and drill was another than in times of Justinian and following Maurice. And even unlooked that, the latin of Maurcie was also not anymore the same as it was used 400 years ago, cause we ve to mentioned it was a living language.

Next to this problems there are the pronouncation (many reenactors dont speak latin and dont wanna study it just for a hobby; and the "c" problem), practicability...

So its for me quite out of interesting which "kind" of orders a group use, even if they dont use Latin commands, cause when i will enter their camp, i m sure, i wont hear any latin any more. So what? I m also sure that the man in late ancient legions and troups with germanic background will not speak any word "present" german or at all one of the older styled (like Mittelhochdeutsch or Althochdeutsch).

What i will say is following: its quite to hard to get a historical "correct" speach in this hobby. And theres no need for in my opinion.
Neither Strohs nor Maurice orders are more or less good for these hobby. Its just a question of your taste.
real Name Tobias Gabrys

Flavii <a class="postlink" href="http://www.flavii.de">www.flavii.de
& Hetairoi <a class="postlink" href="http://www.hetairoi.de">www.hetairoi.de
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#18
Quote:first: there are still enough members of Junkelmanns Legio XXI Rapax on the way. Last time a part of this troup were seenable at Kalkriese ("battle of Varus") in Germany.
Cool I didn't know they were still around.
In Dans book he states quite clearly that the unit had been "de-activated" and in Dr Junklemanns book He seems to suggest that they formed, trained and ultimately existed solely to do the Alpine march as their actions have been a big influence on me I'm very glad that such a top quality unit are still going.

Quote:What surviving roman? Like we already said, Maurice was from Kappadokia and wrote it for the byzantine army in the 6th century.
Yes Maurice wasn't from Rome but neither was Tacitus yet we call him roman, my point is that the Eastern Empire (or Byzantium) was still roman the same way that Gaul, Britain, Hispania and so on where Roman they were in the Roman sphere of influence and their modes of living and (I suspect) thought were Roman. Or to put it another way I think like a Roman therefore I AM a Roman.
That said I think you are right, none of us know or will know for sure whats right or wrong so just as in the past we are left to arrive at our own version of Rome in our own way.
Tasciavanous
AKA James McKeand
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#19
I find that many people "quote" the Stratigekon" of Maurice without even knowing what it is. It is basically a 12 chapter work, with 11 chapters being devoted to the training and maneuvering of CAVALRY! The remaining chapter is mostly about how to use infantry in garrison and mountain warfare where mounted troops were not effective.

It was written in Byzantine Greek about the beginning of the SEVENTH century annos Domini. It has almost NO RELATION to tactics and commands used by 1st century Roman Infantry.

Using it to create a reenactment drill manual for first century Romans infantry is like using a book on 17th century cavalry tactics to create modern infantry parades! It is also like basing jousting recreations on Napoleonic infantry manuals.

1. It is 500+ years OUT OF PERIOD.
2. It is 84% about Cavalry!

You would be much closer if you used Arrian's commands from his book on training cavalry, "Ars Tactica" in the time of 131-137 AD.

It is still about cavalry, but it is 400 years closer to the proper period.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Caius Fabius Maior
Charles Foxtrot
moderator, Roman Army Talk
link to the rules for posting
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#20
Salvete,
theres some members of this troup around and they still see themselves as Coh I of Legio XXI Rapax. Whatever Dan Peterson reports about Junkelmann (and i wonder why not ask himself about such thinks), they are still there and they proud te be the one they are and were.


Caius, its hard to believe, that he wrote it in the 7 th century, cause he died in 602 if i remember right way. And even if it was published in the year(s) of his dead, it was written in 6th century... but anyway, thats quite unimportant. This book isnt "roman", even if we try to see byzantine as "roman".

Anyway, good informative words.
real Name Tobias Gabrys

Flavii <a class="postlink" href="http://www.flavii.de">www.flavii.de
& Hetairoi <a class="postlink" href="http://www.hetairoi.de">www.hetairoi.de
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#21
The seventh century started in 601AD
the 21st century started in 2001AD even though the confused media welcomed the new century on January 1st 2000.

Big Grin

I only put my moderator signature on posts when I am acting as a moderator
so in discussions, I unattach the signature block. Feel free to disagree!

Caius Fabius Wink
Caius Fabius Maior
Charles Foxtrot
moderator, Roman Army Talk
link to the rules for posting
[url:2zv11pbx]http://romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=22853[/url]
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#22
Dont fear, i disagree Big Grin

I dont have on at hand, but anyway i dont believe, he wrote it in 2 years (and just right in time before his death).
And, at all, its a chronoligical way to parts the centuries. Already 1998 it was calles the 21 th century, and even the Dacien wars are often called "end of first century"..
But thats a unnecessary "next string" discussion :roll:
real Name Tobias Gabrys

Flavii <a class="postlink" href="http://www.flavii.de">www.flavii.de
& Hetairoi <a class="postlink" href="http://www.hetairoi.de">www.hetairoi.de
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#23
In the case of the Dacian wars at the "end of first century", that could make sense, since Domitian started campaigning there in mid 80s AD, bring a period of continuous warfare till Trajan ended it.
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#24
Thats right Jasper, thats just the combination of a "period" with a "numberation" (sorry if this isnt the right english word for it, my english at this time isnt the best anymore Wink ).
In case of our time its also reasonable, cause we were in a "millenium" fiber long time before new year 2000...
real Name Tobias Gabrys

Flavii <a class="postlink" href="http://www.flavii.de">www.flavii.de
& Hetairoi <a class="postlink" href="http://www.hetairoi.de">www.hetairoi.de
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#25
As long as we don't start discussing the issues with BC/AD and BCE/CE, we'll be all set! :roll:

Thanks for clearing up some information on the Strategikon, Fascinating that it's mainly a manual for Cavalry. More things to think about.
Fried are Brains
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier."
https://www.facebook.com/LegionIIICyr/
Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S.
Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013)
(Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
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#26
Someone wrote that Maurice had "transliterated" the Roman commands from Latin into Greek. Is this true? The definition I have for this is:
Quote: trans·lit·er·ate:
To represent (letters or words) in the corresponding characters of another alphabet.
If this is actually true the Strategikon did contain Latin commands, just written in the Greek alphabet.

Any one out there with a deep knowledge of ancient languages?

By the way what possible difference does it make if the section is in a cavalry manual or a separate work?
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Leg XX VV
Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
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#27
Yes, the strategikon orders are in latins military vernacular with late language alterations. They are an interesting article by Philip Rance in Journal of greek, roman and byzantine studies about the strategikon and most again the fulcum formation. The better way still the reading of the strategikon himself. In fact they are an recent and excellent english edition by Georges T Dennis (Pennsylvania Press University)...

Poor french reenactors who must translate in first this beautiful military treatise...

A plus...

Damianus of late romans herculianis...

PS: Petit bonjours à tous les membres du RAT présents à Archéon... It's great thank you again for ours all fantastics working and sympathy.

See you...
Paulus Claudius Damianus Marcellinus / Damien Deryckère.

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#28
I seem to be playing devils advocet on this one. I think that the STRATIGIKON is to far out of synch to use for 1stC, but I do think that Maurice considererd himself in part at least Roman so the first roman (note not Latin) orders thing does stand up a bit at least.
I was only trying to put the whole Junklemann/ Stategikon thing in perspective for Dudicus.
therfore:

Cauis I'm with you even if Leg XX isnt.

Tib. Gabinius. I think this IS ROMAN but not applicable to the 1stC.
Tasciavanous
AKA James McKeand
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#29
Quote:Someone wrote that Maurice had "transliterated" the Roman commands from Latin into Greek. Is this true?

Wasn't/isn't Greek supposed to be a phonetic language, so that would give a pretty definitive pronunciation of ancient Latin?

Cheers.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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