Junkelmann/Stroh vs Strategikon re Commands

[Hibernicus]

What do you European legiones prefer?

... the Junkelmann/Kohl commands or a variation of those in the Strategikon...

[Robert Vermaat]

What do you European legiones prefer?
... the Junkelmann/Kohl commands or a variation of those in the Strategikon...

Being a Late Roman, the Strategikon of course!

[caiusbeerquitius]

We use Junkelmann / Stroh.

[FAVENTIANVS]

Where did Marcus Junkelmann take'em from? Are they really different?

[Hibernicus]

It is my understanding that a Latin scholar named Wilfried Stroh wrote them for Junkelmann

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

I' m a late roman reenactor of the herculianis group. I prefers the Strategikon latin orders of course.

In fact, I dont know the Junkelman latin orders but for ours period i prefers the strategikon (i know, it is a few later... ) or a variation of the strategikon latin orders. In Ammianus we can find any terms if we compare with the origninal latin text.

Exemple:

[Qui nullam ad tuendam salutem uiam superesse cernents, nisi se celeri defendissent occursu, locorum gnaritate confisi unum spirantibus animis montem occupauere praecelsum, per confragosos colles undique praeruptum et inuium absque septentrionali latere, unde facilem habet deuexitatem et mollem signis ilico fixis ex more, cum undique ad arma conclamaretur, imperio principis et ductorum stetit regibilis miles, vexillum opperiens extollendum: quod erat oportune subeundae indicium pugnae.]
Ammianus Marcellinus, Res Gestae, Livre XXVII, chapitre 10 paragraphe 9, ligne 7.

Milites..."Ad arma!" (Soldiers all gather): It is possible

as like:

[Proinde quiete reficiendis corporibus data, signoque erecto, quod solet ad pugnam hortari, tubarum minacium accendente clangore, fidentissimo impetu acies motas prompte ante alios praeiere duo iuunes lecti in principiis adeundi discriminis, Saliuius et Lupicinus, Scutarius anus, alter e schola Gentilium, fragore terribili concitantes: hastasque crispando cum ad rupim obiecta uenissent, trudentibusque Alamannis euadere ad celsiora conarentur adwenit omne pondus armorum, isdemque antesignanis per hirta dumis et aspera magno uirium nisu in editas sublimitates erepsit.]
Ammianus Marcellinus, Res Gestae, Livre XXVII, chapitre 10, paragraphe 12, ligne 1.

So:
Milites… Ad Signo! : (Soldiers all gather) It is possible too. Rather than the strategikon latin order "Ad Bando"... too byzantine (bandon is an byzantine military unit...)

In Vegetius it is most difficult, maybe impossible except the word of war: Plama... Victory, Deus... Nothing clairly. But attention; for me the Epitoma rei militaris are most seriously source for the late IIIe and IVe century A. D. and a late roman army rather than the early empire!!!

The most important is a good research in original latin text for his period. it is an better historic base!!

Right: i dont like the total post modern reconstruction and over all the "sin dex song"... but I know that compromission is most easy...

A plus...

[Robert Vermaat]

Right: i dont like the total post modern reconstruction and over all the "sin dex song"... but I know that compromission is most easy...

That's very good, because in a week, I hope I'll have you guys marching acros the plains of Holland under that 'song'!! D

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

laugth... Argh!! :wink:

[A_Volpe]

I'll probably get it for this...

What are the commands from Junkleman? Is it possible to list them [here]? I'd like to see them compared to the Strategikon.

And...when was the Junkleman commands written? (I think I saw that mentioned somewhere but I can't seem to find it right now) And what are they based on? Or were they created as a means to fill that void using known Classical Latin vocabulary? I'm curious, as I know the Strategikon is a Late period set of commands, but it's been mentioned to me as the oldest "known" commands specifically in Latin.

Sorry I'm asking so late in the game, I'm always playing catch-up with [this board], and sorry I don't know much about Junkleman, so forgive me.

[aitor iriarte]

Being late Romans, Strategikon, of course! :wink:
Unfortunately, it doesn't cover all the possible or minimally necessary comands and improvisation and post-modern reconstruction is always needed to fill the gaps... :?

Aitor

[Caius Fabius]

in response to this statement:
" I'm curious, as I know the Strategikon is a Late period set of commands, but it's been mentioned to me as the oldest "known" commands specifically in Latin. "

...................................................................................................

I wasn't aware that the Strategikon had any commands in Latin.
My copy is translated from original Greek. :?

The Latin commands used by Junklemann's group and other first century re-enactment groups are already posted in several places on the internet.

Here they are again, (English version) Of course, Dr. Junklemann's book lists the German translation of the latin commands......

Latin English

Milites -- Soldiers/unit

Venite! -- Assemble!

Abite! -- Dismissed!

State! -- Attention!

Movemini! -- At ease!

Scuta sursum! -- Lift shield!

Scuta dorsum! -- Ground shield!

Pergite! -- Forward, march!

Aequatis passibus! -- March in step! (normal speed)

Consistite! -- Halt!

Ad dextram! -- Right face!

Ad sinistram! -- Left face!

Laevum, laevum ... Left, left

Oculos ad destram! -- Eyes right

Oculos vostros ad sinistram! -- Eyes left!

Nuntio -- Report!

Nibil novi -- Nothing to report!

Cursim! -- Double-time, march

Retro! -- To the rear, march! Or About face (if stationary)

Tollite pila! -- Prepare to throw pila!

Mittite! -- Throw!

Gladios stringite! -- draw swords!

Gladios condite! -- return swords to scabbards!

Convenite! -- Assemble!

In agmen venite! -- Form Column!

In aciem venite! -- Form line!

In unum ordines -- Single file, march!

In duos ordines -- Column of twos, march!

In quatre ordines -- Column of fours, march!

Aciem dirigite! -- Dress! (the line)

Scuta premite! -- Tighten the column!

Progredere! Step Forward! (once)

Regredere! Step back (once)

Pila inclinite! Charge pila! (Pila inclined point to the front)

Pila sursum! Take up Pila (carry in arm)

Pila dorsum! Ground Pila (butt on ground)

Genua flectite! -- Kneel! (everyone)

Primi aciem genua flectite! -- Front rank kneel!

Surgite! -- Stand!

Sarcina sumite! -- Take up packs!

Sarcinas deponite! -- Ground packs!

AD arma! -- To arms!

Arma deponite! -- Ground arms!

In tabernacula! -- Go to the tents!

E tabernaculis! -- Assemble in front of the tents!

Tabernacula statuite! -- Erect your tents!

Tabernacula detendite! -- Strike tents!

Extinguite lumina! -- Lights out!

Vasa conclamate! -- Pack your equipment!

Parate vos ad iter! -- Make ready to march!

[Tasciavanous]

Our lot use a set that is simaller to the Junklemann but different.
The set we use is the same as the ones used by the XIIII as some of our founding members where/are in the XIIII and we thought it was a good idea to use a drill set allready being used by a group that we respected and where proud to work alongside.

James

[Crispvs]

Thank you Tasciavanous. We enjoy working alongside the VIII as well.

Here are some (although not all) of the commands you mentioned, as used by the XIIII.

Ad signa - Fall in

Intente - Attention

Quiete - At ease

Otiose - Stand easy

Procedite - Foreward march

Dextrorsum vertite - right turn

Sinistrorsum vertite - left turn

Dextrorsum signa convertite - right wheel

Sinistrorsum signa convertite - left wheel

Dextrorsum flectite - right incline

Sinistrorsum flectite - left incline

Ad tergum vertite - about turn

Quattuor ordines facite - form four files

Duos ordines facite - form two files

Simplicem ordinem facite - form a single file

Unum ordinem facite - form a single rank

Duobus ordinibus procedite - march forward from a single rank into two files

Ite tardius - slow the pace

Ite celerius - quicken the pace

Densate - move closer together

Extra numerum ite - break step

Ordines servate - dress the line

Pulsum pedibus date - mark time

Consistite - halt

Insistite - stand still

Pila portate - lift pila

Hastae portate - lift hastae

Pila / hastae demittite - ground pila

Pila tolite - raise pila to shoulder height in readiness to throw

Pila iacite - throw pila

Terram pilis ferite - thrust the pilum butt into the ground so it stands unsupported

Scuta portate - take up shields

Scuta tollite - raise shields to battle position

Scuta demittite - ground shields

Gladios destringite - draw swords

Gladios recondite - sheath swords

Acies aperite - move to open order

Primus ordo insistite, novisimus ordo impetum facite - front rank stand fast, rear rank charge forward through front rank

Testudinem facite - form testudo

Cuneum facite - form wedge

Contra equites factite - from anti cavalry wall

Orbem instuite - form a hollow circle

Oculos dextrorsum - eyes right

Oculos - sinistrorsum - eyes left

Frontem aspicite - eyes front


There we are. Only about a third of the drill manual but enough to get the flavour. The drill was worked out by Clive Hewett and Len Morgan and set into the correct Latin by Alan Wilkins

Crispvs

[A_Volpe]

Very interesting, thanks.

Again, I hate to sound totallly oblivious, when was the Junkleman commands written?

I seem to get more questions than answers regarding the variations of these drills, which I can easily understand which increases the difficulty in establishing a standard set of commands. SIGH.

Anyways, my reference to the Strategikon being "oldest known Latin" comes from Matt Amt's/Leg. XX site (with apologies to Matt):

>"There is no surviving Roman marching drill from the first century, so most of ours is adapted from the Strategikon of Maurice. This was written in the 6th century AD, but is still the oldest known Latin drill. Other commands have been added to allow necessary actions like drawing swords, etc.--some of these have been adapted from the Ermine Street Guard's drill. Maurice's drill is strikingly similar to an obsolete Greek drill in Arrian's Tactical Manual, from the 2nd century AD."<

I haven't re-read the information on the top of [his] page for some time, so apparently I had only rememberd half of the information/detail of the reference, so my apologies to anyone I've confused. I greatly respect Matt and all his hard work, so I mean no disrespect [to him] or misleading any of you on what I had for reference.

...I have to take lots of chunks of information to use in my presentations, since I only have 30 minutes each program, with anyone from young, fidgety children to teenagers to Adults, so I simply cannot stand there and explain in explicit detail which is what and where it went. It's the Limited-Attention-Span factor and the Ooh-Pretty-Shiny-Armor factor. And I admit I forget specific details myself.

[Tasciavanous]

I believe the "Junkelmann orders" were written for the founding of LegXXI Rapex in 1980-something (82/83 I think). This Legion has now broken up, having achieved its very specific aims, a 23 day long fully immersed Alpine march. more details could be found in Dan Petersons book or He might be able/willing to fill you in with more info about XXI as he was there and saw/did it all a first hand.
This as yet unparalleled act of roman re-enactment has been a great spur to the hobby at large and to many individuals who were inspired to emulate this so they naturally use the commands that the Dr. Junkelmann used. Matt and Leg XX represent another route by using the only surviving ROMAN orders as the basis for their drill. and Leg XX and XIIII in the UK use a variant on the Junkelmann formula whereby they have written a set of Latin orders based on basic drill needs.
Sorry this has been quite long but I think I've just about covered every thing except the late era drill as I dont know enough about that to hazard comment.
James