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Help with choosing gladius
#1
Hi there.

I'd need some help. I want to buy some roman equipment for reenactment but you know money is always a prob Wink so I will have to do this slowly one by one. first thing I want to get is a gladius. Preferably a mainz type but I'm not sure yet. still thinking if I should start with a Caesarian/Augustan legionary or a late 1st century/early 2nd century Auxiliary. hmmm Smile

So I'll just write down the questions I have and what I think and hope that someone can help me:

1. How long was the Mainz type actually used? I know old gear was given to the auxiliaries sometimes (like the coolus helmet for example), so was the mainz gladius still in use with the aux. during the late 1st century? (btw. is a coolus helmet the right one for a late 1st to traianic aux, or was it replaced completely by the aux. helmet with reinforcements on top by that time?)


2.I can't work on the sword myself. don't have the tools nor the knowledge to do so. so if I buy one, which one would you suggest? I want it to be as realistic as possible and I want it to be a "real" one (meaning if I was a real Roman sent into the german forrests I would be able tu use it Wink ) don't get me wrong I'm not planning any weird things, it just doesn't feel right to useone which wouldn't be useable in reality.

I live in Europe so I'd prefer some suppliers here to keep the costs somehow low. I found this page here for swords>

http://www.roemerschmiede.de/html/gladius_t1.html

and helmets (been thinking about Coolus C and E, Model Elsass)>
http://www.roemerschmiede.de/html/romerhelm_t1.html

any idea where to get an aux. helmet with "cross" reinforcements on top?
most is depeeka from what I guess, so could someone maybe give some suggestions?


thank you very much. Smile
RESTITVTOR LIBERTATIS ET ROMANAE RELIGIONIS

DEDITICIVS MINERVAE ET MVSARVM

[Micha F.]
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#2
Deeppeka mainz is a good choose, but it's extremly popular. Especially i like the gladius blade.

The dealer you have choose seems good with good prices. You can search, compare and if you find some better, buy it.
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#3
Salve,

Auxiliary C (with cross-bracing) can be obtained from Len Morgan at Fabrica.
http://www.romanarmy.net/fabrica.htm

There are two in our unit. One can be seen here:

http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm

Regards,
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#4
Quote:...first thing I want to get is a gladius. Preferably a mainz type but I'm not sure yet.

Ave! I always recommend that new guys start with a tunic and footwear, so that they can participate as soon as possible, but that's entirely up to you! If a sword is what you need, get it.

Quote: still thinking if I should start with a Caesarian/Augustan legionary or a late 1st century/early 2nd century Auxiliary.

Yeah, the equipment that's available might help you decide, since very few pieces will be usable for both periods. No reason you can't do both eventually, but with a tight budget it's probably a good idea to focus on one or the other.

Quote:1. How long was the Mainz type actually used? I know old gear was given to the auxiliaries sometimes (like the coolus helmet for example), so was the mainz gladius still in use with the aux. during the late 1st century?

Well, we THINK older gear may have been passed on to auxiliaries, but that's really just a theory at this point. Gravestones show their belts and other items to be quite ornate, and not below legionary grade at all. The problem is trying to find equipment that has been excavated from datable contexts, and I'm not sure how much of that there is. We know the Mainz is good through mid-first century because they are found in Britain, but I would hesitate to assume that they were still in use in the late first century or early second. Same sort of story with the Coolus helmets.

Quote:(btw. is a coolus helmet the right one for a late 1st to traianic aux, or was it replaced completely by the aux. helmet with reinforcements on top by that time?)

By Trajan's time, I'd say the Coolus was mostly replaced by the other types. Obviously there are always a few older vestiges hanging around, but it gets kind of silly if you claim to be from the early 2nd century and all your gear dates to the mid-first!

Quote:2.I can't work on the sword myself. don't have the tools nor the knowledge to do so. so if I buy one, which one would you suggest? I want it to be as realistic as possible and I want it to be a "real" one (meaning if I was a real Roman sent into the german forrests I would be able tu use it

Well, Deepeeka makes the cheapest Mainz that's reasonably accurate, though it still doesn't come with a baldric. (You could just tie a cord or thong through the rings and hang it from your belt, though.) And I don't know if anyone has found out how "battle-worthy" it might be, yet.

Quote:I live in Europe so I'd prefer some suppliers here to keep the costs somehow low. I found this page here for swords

Yup, those are Deepeeka products. The official Legio XX opinion on those can be found on the various pages of our website, e.g.:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/gladius.html

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/helmets.html

Quote:any idea where to get an aux. helmet with "cross" reinforcements on top? most is depeeka from what I guess, so could someone maybe give some suggestions?

Deepeeka used to do a nice Auxiliary B, without the cross-bracing, which I think would be fine for late 1st/early 2nd century. They make some later cross-braced helmets, mostly cavalry, but don't recall them doing Auxiliary C. Like Peroni suggested, custom work is an option if you can afford it.

Good luck! Vale,

Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#5
What's the going opinion on their 4th century spatha? It looks nice on the photo, and I could use one. Most of the other basic gear I can make, and it would finally give me one useable kit.
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!

Volker Bach
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#6
thank you all very, very much.

I'm still thinking about which kind of equipment I want to get. On the one hand I like the aux. equipment during the late first century and I think they don't really get the attention they deserve cause there are so many legionary impressions but only few aux. imho (Raetian aux especially because of my home and I'd really like to do that)

On the other hand I grew up in Brigantium where they have this beautiful Liechtenstein Coolus helmet and Mainz gladius in the museum, where I went to since I've been a child (will post pics as soon as I get them on digicam, they have some really nice stuff there). aaaahhh so hard to decide Wink

It's a pity, there are so many reenactment groups around but there's none close here. I don't even know of one close to vienna (Vindobona and Carnuntum) where I live now, although I saw an Augustan legionary cross the street 2 weeks ago. too far away to talk to sadly enough. Sad
RESTITVTOR LIBERTATIS ET ROMANAE RELIGIONIS

DEDITICIVS MINERVAE ET MVSARVM

[Micha F.]
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#7
"There are two in our unit. "

Which I am deeply unhappy about and have been trying to discourage for quite some time. Cross braced helmets should not be present in what is otherwise a mid first century display! :evil:

On the subject of cross bracing, this is generally believed to have been introduced during Trajan's Dacian campaigns in response to the Dacian falx. The helmet found at Berzobis proves that some helmets at least were modified in the field by 'retro-fitting' crude cross bracing to them during the Dacian campaigns. This bracing is round section and is unlike the interlocking flat section bracing to be found on the helmet from Florence reconstructed by Robinson as 'Auxiliary type 'C'. The Florence bracing is more like the bracing fitted to the late second / early third century helmets which Robinson defined as Cavalry types 'D','E' and 'F'. The earliest datable examples of this type of bracing come from Antonine period levels at Corbridge and Xanten. The bracing fitted to the Berzobis helmet during the Dacian campaign is much more like the cross bracing on the Hebron helmet (Robinson's Imperial Italic type 'G'), which has been convincingly argued to have been deposited during the Bar Kochbar Revolt during the reign of Hadrian. Whilst the Hebron helmet was presumably already in existence prior to the revolt, its decoration of four lunar shaped ornaments, one in each quarter, demonstrates that cross bracing was an original feature of the helmet (therefore possibly dating it to after the Dacian wars). This feature is shared by a helmet from Wiesbaden (Robinson's Imperial Gallic type 'K') showing it to have been a common feature during the period following the Dacian wars. If this may have lost some of you by now, the point really is to show that the so called 'Auxiliary type 'C' helmet should be seen as an Antonine period helmet or later, rather than a Trajanic period helmet.
It should also be considered that Robinson's reconstruction of the Florence helmet was speculative rather than authoritative. In order to suggest how the helmet might have looked, he looked at the probably simplified images of cross braced helmets on Trajan's column to provide possibilities for the form of the missing neck guard and occipital area. However, as the form of the cross bracing strongly suggests that the helmet dates from the latter half of the second century, I would suggest that it may originally have had a deeper occipital area, possibly with several steps, and a wide, sloping neck guard similar to those on the Niedermoemter and Guttmann helmets (Imperial Italic type 'H'). It may even have had large cheek guards which covered the ears. Obviously this is speculative as well but I think no less likely. Incidentally, Robinson did not state that it was an early second century helmet. He merely used an early second century source for possibilities as to what the lower half of a cross braced helmet might look like. It was Connolly (also in 1975) who, incorrectly in my view, stated that the Florence helmet dated to the early second century (presumably also from looking at Trajan's column).

Now to Mainz type swords (finally). The latest example of a Mainz type sword that I am aware of is a sword which was deposited with a military belt under the floor of a barrack room (I think) at Vindonissa sometime around AD69 or 70 (or so I am led to believe).

Len Morgan makes very good Mainz type gladii. There are several in our unit (and I do not object to those).

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#8
"There are two in our unit. "

Which I am deeply unhappy about and have been trying to discourage for quite some time. Cross braced helmets should not be present in what is otherwise a mid first century display! :evil:

On the subject of cross bracing, this is generally believed to have been introduced during Trajan's Dacian campaigns in response to the Dacian falx. The helmet found at Berzobis proves that some helmets at least were modified in the field by 'retro-fitting' crude cross bracing to them during the Dacian campaigns. This bracing is round section and is unlike the interlocking flat section bracing to be found on the helmet from Florence reconstructed by Robinson as 'Auxiliary type 'C'. The Florence bracing is more like the bracing fitted to the late second / early third century helmets which Robinson defined as Cavalry types 'D','E' and 'F'. The earliest datable examples of this type of bracing come from Antonine period levels at Corbridge and Xanten. The bracing fitted to the Berzobis helmet during the Dacian campaign is much more like the cross bracing on the Hebron helmet (Robinson's Imperial Italic type 'G'), which has been convincingly argued to have been deposited during the Bar Kochbar Revolt during the reign of Hadrian. Whilst the Hebron helmet was presumably already in existence prior to the revolt, its decoration of four lunar shaped ornaments, one in each quarter, demonstrates that cross bracing was an original feature of the helmet (therefore possibly dating it to after the Dacian wars). This feature is shared by a helmet from Wiesbaden (Robinson's Imperial Gallic type 'K') showing it to have been a common feature during the period following the Dacian wars. If this may have lost some of you by now, the point really is to show that the so called 'Auxiliary type 'C' helmet should be seen as an Antonine period helmet or later, rather than a Trajanic period helmet.
It should also be considered that Robinson's reconstruction of the Florence helmet was speculative rather than authoritative. In order to suggest how the helmet might have looked, he looked at the probably simplified images of cross braced helmets on Trajan's column to provide possibilities for the form of the missing neck guard and occipital area. However, as the form of the cross bracing strongly suggests that the helmet dates from the latter half of the second century, I would suggest that it may originally have had a deeper occipital area, possibly with several steps, and a wide, sloping neck guard similar to those on the Niedermoemter and Guttmann helmets (Imperial Italic type 'H'). It may even have had large cheek guards which covered the ears. Obviously this is speculative as well but I think no less likely. Incidentally, Robinson did not state that it was an early second century helmet. He merely used an early second century source for possibilities as to what the lower half of a cross braced helmet might look like. It was Connolly (also in 1975) who, incorrectly in my view, stated that the Florence helmet dated to the early second century (presumably also from looking at Trajan's column).

Now to Mainz type swords (finally). The latest example of a Mainz type sword that I am aware of is a sword which was deposited with a military belt under the floor of a barrack room (I think) at Vindonissa sometime around AD69 or 70 (or so I am led to believe).

Len Morgan makes very good Mainz type gladii. There are several in our unit (and I do not object to those).

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#9
I recently had my gladius made by Len Morgen and I am very satisfied by his work.

I also, have 2 pompeii gladius by Deepeeka with different grips but they can not match to the Mainz of LM.

Stephen McMahon
Stephen John McMahon
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