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butted vs rivetted
#16
Ahem! I recommend tinning. An iron shirt of Roman make would last about three rustings before it would be gone. Some kind of semi permanent coating must have been in use and then re-applied in a sort of periodic maintenance effort.
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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#17
ya but if ya tin it, then it would look like that gal shiney mail on ebay Wink
Tiberius Claudius Lupus

Chuck Russell
Keyser,WV, USA
[url:em57ti3w]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/Roman/index.htm[/url]
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#18
Can't you make it rustproof by hardening it with fire? This is however something that should be done during construction...
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#19
as in blackening it? i've seen people blacken there mail on the grill with boiled linseed oil as well as old motoroil. as to teh hardening, i dunno... you heat up rings to be able to make them workable and annile(sp?) them.
Tiberius Claudius Lupus

Chuck Russell
Keyser,WV, USA
[url:em57ti3w]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/Roman/index.htm[/url]
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#20
It would have to be a certain quality of steel before you could actually harden it. Plus this would have no effect on preventing it from rusting.
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


a.k.a. Paul M.
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#21
Yes! It is important to remember the Romans had iron, not steel mail.
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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#22
Here is a tinned hamata by Holger Ratsdorf.
[Image: legionary_bonn1.jpg][/url]
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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#23
Possibly a dumb question- but is it actually the case that Romans never used butted mail?
It would be great to hear on this- particularly if someone has actually benn able to examine the rusted lumps that have survived.....
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aka Paul B, moderator
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#24
I have examined 2 original pieces, in one case it was so rusted that you would never be able to tell, ont the other I saw what I thought were traces of the rivets, couldn't be sure. The only butted mail I have ever seen anywhere that was actually meant to be used for combat was from the 15th century, and the guage of wire was fairly thick.
aka., John Shook
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#25
hmmm being i do 15thc l.h. i seriously doubt it was butted for combat. most mail in 15thc is flat riveted per Eric S. and what i;ve seen in the museums an in books. besides sword action was taught for cuts, jabs, etc butted mail wouldnt last a sec. and doesnt.... thus we outlawed it in our group. ( http://www.lordgreys.org )

i think the butted roman mail myth my come from H Russell Robinson. i believe he said something about butted mail in his book did he not? i cant remember... i dont own the book just got to gaze upon it once or twice.

but no one can really seem to find any real proof it exsisted can they? i mean come on, butted mail jsut will not hold up. the gladius was used to punch not slash right? punch it on a butted shirt and watch the rings fly. i always have the open mind that if we cant get it to work in recreatment, we've done something wrong. ehehhe
Tiberius Claudius Lupus

Chuck Russell
Keyser,WV, USA
[url:em57ti3w]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/Roman/index.htm[/url]
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#26
I seem to remember a mail shirt (found in another rusty lump) in Britain that was dated to around 300BC which had butted rings ranging in size from 9 - 13mm

Regards,
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#27
it was ottoman/ byzatine, it was in combat, it did have an arrowhead imbedded!, it was very very thick wire used. In my experiance very thick wire butted mail holds up just fine, I was in a one hour battle in some once, and it even stopped a medium spear thrust, It does weigh about 45 lbs though.
aka., John Shook
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#28
Aha-found it! :lol:

I think Peroni's reference is to the Kirkburn shirt. I googled around and found this.

"Returning to Stead's account, "the operation was successful and the mail was moved to the [British] museum for further conservation. In the event, the only artefact under it [the tunic] was a small copper-alloy toggle….
"Although complete when buried, the mail tunic is now badly corroded and partly fragmented; it can never be restored to its original state, but conservation and radiography have revealed full details of its construction. Each link is a ring 8.2 - 9.2mm in external diameter, constructed from iron wire 1.5 - 1.9mm thick; each is butt-jointed and linked with four other rings (Fig. 45, d.). As found, the tunic comprised two superimposed layers of mail, the front and the back with a single layer for the shoulder-flaps extending from the back. There was no hint of leather or fabric between the two layers, and no indication of organic binding at the collar, hem, or sleeve. Some mineralised fabric on the underside was all that remained of the covering or clothing of the corpse."

[Iron Age Cemeteries in East Yorkshire, I.M. Stead, English Heritage Archaeological Report no. 22, 1991, pp 54]

Efforts to provide here a photographic image of the tunic have proved fruitless, Dr. J. D. Hill, Curator, British and European Iron Age Collections at the British Museum, in which collection the tunic is housed, has told me that the remains of the tunic "are not very photogenic" and that "there are no high quality images of the shirt." So, I must return to Simon Dove's written account of the lifting of the tunic, which does include a few useable images. "In some areas of the garment individual links could be distinguished but most of the mail had fused together into a mass of corrosion products. Unfortunately this had no intrinsic strength and crumbled easily, so before any lifting could be attempted the mail had to be consolidated to prevent any further damage." The narrative from hence becomes rather technical, but no apologies, as this is a vital process and needs to be presented in full.
"A solution of 50% Texicryl 13-002, an acrylic co-polymer, in water was applied using pipettes and syringes, to avoid any physical damage that brushing might have caused. An emulsion was chosen as consolidant because the ground was damp and it was feared that the use of a solvent-based solution, for example Paraloid B72 in acetone, would have merely formed a white film on the surface and not acted as a consolidant at all. Texicryl had been used satisfactorily as an on-site consolidant on previous excavations. Although it was sunny for most of the excavation period, cold north-east winds lowered the temperature. This, combined with the dampness in the ground, affected the curing time of the Texicryl. It took over 24 hours before hardening was complete. There is rarely time for prolonged procedures on site and in this case there was less than a week left. The delay was not only frustrating but highly inconvenient."
A decision then had to be made about how to lift the tunic, two main options seemed to be available, but each had its own drawbacks. The choice was made after due consideration to use a variation of the method used to lift mosaics and wall-paintings. "After the initial application of consolidant had hardened a layer of scrim and bandage was applied to cover the mail. Texicryl was used again with the resulting delay in hardening. Even when completely cured Texicryl retains some flexibility so if the original contours of the mail tunic were to be preserved a rigid support would be needed.
More at http://www.yorkshirehistory.com/chariot ... ndex_a.htm
and at http://www.vicus.org.uk/ (look under resources "Evidence for British mail shirts"
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aka Paul B, moderator
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Moderation in all things
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#29
Quote:it was ottoman/ byzatine, it was in combat, it did have an arrowhead imbedded!, it was very very thick wire used. In my experiance very thick wire butted mail holds up just fine, I was in a one hour battle in some once, and it even stopped a medium spear thrust, It does weigh about 45 lbs though.

ah ok ehhe why didnt ya say eastern Wink here i was thinking western europe. doh, i feel like an idiot. hhehehe. ya eastern i believe had it, still cant figure out why.
Tiberius Claudius Lupus

Chuck Russell
Keyser,WV, USA
[url:em57ti3w]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/Roman/index.htm[/url]
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