06-01-2005, 09:28 AM
[quote="floofthegoof
Last year I read all of Livy, and this is what I'd like to bring up about the war with Hannibal. Cannae happened very early in Roman history, and the army was made almost entirely of Italians. Rome at that time only controlled part of Sicily, Sardinia and Spain. Nothing like the empire of Xerxes. Another thing that is notable about that time period, is that Hannibal's army of ~60,000 was able to forage in Italy for 10 years! This is about 200 years after the Persian wars. That makes me guess that it would take a much larger force to starve in 1 season, although I don't really know the difference between the climate in northern greece and southern Italy.
Good point, Floof, I'm ashamed I didn't think of it myself! As to the climate issue and fertility, Hannibal was all over Italy like a nasty rash, but was forced to spend considerable amounts of time in "thirsty Apulia", where his forage problems were maximised.
From these regions he passed by the cities of the mainland, one of which has near it a lake of about thirty stadia in circuit, full of fish and very salty; this was drained dry by watering the beasts of burden alone.
They drank "very salty" water? I don't know about mules, donkeys, camels and oxen, but no horse would drink such water and I don't think any other animal could do so and live. Sounds like a flight of fancy to me.
Pity, because if this is an exaggeration, we have to be very cautious with the rest of it, too.
It's very interesting to read how he calculates it and particularly the European states he lists.
As for the service-train which followed them and the crews of the light corn-bearing vessels and all the other vessels besides which came by sea with the force, these I believe to have been not fewer but more than the fighting men. Suppose, however, that they were equal in number, neither more nor fewer. If they were equal to the fighting contingent, they made up as many tens of thousands as the others. The number, then, of those whom Xerxes son of Darius led as far as the Sepiad headland and Thermopylae was five million, two hundred and eighty-three thousand, two hundred and twenty.
Very interesting.
I do, however, wonder how there were provisions sufficient for so many tens of thousands, [2] for calculation shows me, that if each man received one choenix of wheat a day and no more, eleven hundred thousand and three hundred and forty bushels would be required every day.(sub1) In this calculation I take no account of the provisions for the women, eunuchs, beasts of burden and dogs.
Fascinating stuff!
Last year I read all of Livy, and this is what I'd like to bring up about the war with Hannibal. Cannae happened very early in Roman history, and the army was made almost entirely of Italians. Rome at that time only controlled part of Sicily, Sardinia and Spain. Nothing like the empire of Xerxes. Another thing that is notable about that time period, is that Hannibal's army of ~60,000 was able to forage in Italy for 10 years! This is about 200 years after the Persian wars. That makes me guess that it would take a much larger force to starve in 1 season, although I don't really know the difference between the climate in northern greece and southern Italy.
Good point, Floof, I'm ashamed I didn't think of it myself! As to the climate issue and fertility, Hannibal was all over Italy like a nasty rash, but was forced to spend considerable amounts of time in "thirsty Apulia", where his forage problems were maximised.
From these regions he passed by the cities of the mainland, one of which has near it a lake of about thirty stadia in circuit, full of fish and very salty; this was drained dry by watering the beasts of burden alone.
They drank "very salty" water? I don't know about mules, donkeys, camels and oxen, but no horse would drink such water and I don't think any other animal could do so and live. Sounds like a flight of fancy to me.
Pity, because if this is an exaggeration, we have to be very cautious with the rest of it, too.
It's very interesting to read how he calculates it and particularly the European states he lists.
As for the service-train which followed them and the crews of the light corn-bearing vessels and all the other vessels besides which came by sea with the force, these I believe to have been not fewer but more than the fighting men. Suppose, however, that they were equal in number, neither more nor fewer. If they were equal to the fighting contingent, they made up as many tens of thousands as the others. The number, then, of those whom Xerxes son of Darius led as far as the Sepiad headland and Thermopylae was five million, two hundred and eighty-three thousand, two hundred and twenty.
Very interesting.
I do, however, wonder how there were provisions sufficient for so many tens of thousands, [2] for calculation shows me, that if each man received one choenix of wheat a day and no more, eleven hundred thousand and three hundred and forty bushels would be required every day.(sub1) In this calculation I take no account of the provisions for the women, eunuchs, beasts of burden and dogs.
Fascinating stuff!
