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U.S. National Legion?!
#46
I agree with TC VINDEX on this one, I too have had to deal with LARP and SCA, I wear a tunic, and speak latin, and I actually found people there that scared me with weirdness.

I also agree with highschool recruits, over half the auxilia in our unit are high schoolers, some from my own neighborhood, they caught wind of it when I did a demonstration for the local latin club, and two joined from a high school 3 blocks away. we have grown in 5 months from a unit of 2 men to a unit of 7 men using this recruiting tactic.

I would rather have a 15 year old with a head on his/her shoulders than a 30 year old who lives in his parents basement and dresses up to play LARP sword fight. Confusedhock:
aka., John Shook
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#47
Quote:a LARPer who just wants to hit people with a sword

Sounds like a genuine legionary to me :wink:

Quote:I actually found people there that scared me with weirdness.

According to contemporary reactions to legionaries, sounds like genuine legionaries to me. :wink: :wink: I know of a Primus Pilus, but I think what's really needed is a Chillus Pillus.

Cheers.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#48
Actually Magnus, Roman reenactment in the U.S. is like CW reenacting was in 1965. It has many years to improve and change, but using CW reenactment as the "model", my aim is to compress the decades of trial and error to achieve a system of Roman reenactment comparable to "cutting edge" authentic CW reenactment utilizing the same "squad mess to contuburnia" approach. Yes many of the existing groups will not change, just as some CW groups never advanced past the "1963" mentality of three to five man "regiments" (or legions).

The point of the national legion is to offer advanced, authentic reenactors, coming from other periods, to have similarly authentic, immersion reenactment experiences in the Roman hobby, with realistic sized units, as they are familiar with from periods like RevWar, CW, WWII, etc.

As the group/system matures, I fully expect people who may be members of the various "mini-legions", to also be join the National legion for the occasional major event. Some reenactors want to be part of something "big", some want to keep it small. Different strokes for different folks. For me, reenactment doesn't seem "real" until realistic numbers are achieved. Although it is possible for many mini-legions to work together, they will always appear as a rabble with a dozen different shield designs, and time periods intermingled together.

Dan
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#49
[size=150:39ueevqz]O[/size]h Dan,
No matter what you keep saying, Silly War is NOT the end-all, be-all of reenacting. WWI is the "reenactor's Reenactment! You will never convince me that ACW reenactors have ANYTHING on Great War reenactors. EVER! I simply am not impressed by the so-called authentics in American Civil War reenacting, who do bizare things like piss on their buttons to try and be authentic.

You keep going on about 3 man units. Bravo Foxtrot Delta! All units start somewhere... stop being rude.

I do not need flags or whatever, nor do I need a transverse crest to be cool! Do you ever go out without your Centurion's get up? I've NEVER seen a photo of that. Would you be willing to take orders from someone else w/ more men? What if Matt Amt came out w/ 25 guys and you had 7, would you follow his orders? I bet not.

By forcibly trying to assimilate the Roman world, you turn off those who would be your friends. ;-( Every one of us has the right to our own beliefs and ideas. If you want to sway us, do so nicely. Like many of us have told you before, this is a HOBBY, if it ain't fun, why do it? Please don't make it unfun! And no, I won't be assimilated...
Marsh
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
a.k.a.: Marsh Wise
Legio IX Hispana www.legioix.org

Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt

"A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself." ~Mark Twain

[img size=150]http://www.romanobritain.org/Graphics/marsh_qr1.png[/img]
(Oooh, Marshall, you cannot use an icky modern QR code, it is against all policies and rules.)
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#50
Quote:"By forcibly trying to assimilate the Roman world, you turn off those who would be your friends. ;-( Every one of us has the right to our own beliefs and ideas. If you want to sway us, do so nicely. I simply am not impressed by the button-pissers in Silly War.
Marsh
_________________
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
a.k.a.: Marsh Wise

-=RAT Moderator=- "

Quis moderat ipsos moderatores?

*edited so that the quote is clearer J.O.*
[Image: wip2_r1_c1-1-1.jpg] [Image: Comitatuslogo3.jpg]


aka Paul B, moderator
http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm
Moderation in all things
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#51
Quote:Quis moderat ipsos moderatores?

Me! Big Grin

Seriously though, if someone is of the opinion that one of the mods is out of line, feel free to contact me and I'll take it up with them. (though public flogging is not an option, sorry).
In the case of this thread: emotions seem to be flaring up, so moderators and admin will be watching this thread more carefully!
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#52
Quote:Quis moderat ipsos moderatores?
[size=150:das2yt4u]A[/size]nd notice, I do practice self-moderation, like when someone points out I'm too harsh or whatever... so, feel free to send me a PM or e-mail and tell me I'm being a sod... notice I have went back and re-written the post a coupla times... comes from reading posts and responding w/ a sinus migraine -- makes me grouchy.
Marsh the Eeevyill one
:roll:
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
a.k.a.: Marsh Wise
Legio IX Hispana www.legioix.org

Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt

"A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself." ~Mark Twain

[img size=150]http://www.romanobritain.org/Graphics/marsh_qr1.png[/img]
(Oooh, Marshall, you cannot use an icky modern QR code, it is against all policies and rules.)
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#53
Quote:Quis moderat ipsos moderatores?
As a moderator I must seriously warn you to stop writing in that weird language that nobody understands, or else! :lol:
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#54
If we want to be completely authentic, let's do a little thought experiment. OK.

An actual Roman legionary from the mid 1st century Leg XIIII is magically transported to a modern Roman reenactor event. What differences will be the most striking to him?

Different armor or helmets?
---------------------------------
Probably not. Armor changes over time and from location to location even in Roman times.

Different shield emblems?
-------------------------------
Probably not. Different legions had different emblems and a common legionary would not be trained in recognizing all of them.

Teeth?
--------
Visit anyplace where modern dental care is in short supply and you will rarely see the full sets of beautiful straight pearly whites that most Americans sport. Would probably seem downright spooky.
SOLUTION:
Knock some of your teeth out. Extra credit for only leaving one in front.

Smell?
--------
Yep, that's one. We bath too much. Yes, the Romans had the baths, but your common legionary probably didn't get to bath every day and it was probably often a long time between. And we use deodorant. Also bathrooms are much too hygienic.
SOLUTION:
Stop bathing, using deodorant, and everyone must s__t in a trench. Also oil scraping and sharing sponges mandatory.

Language?
------------
Sure. Hardly anyone speaks Latin anymore. And absolutely no one uses the right accent. (Since we don't know it.)
SOLUTION:
If you don’t speak Latin, you don’t get to speak. If you didn’t learn Latin as your mother tongue, you should speak as little as possible. Use a tablet and write things out in Latin.

Tunics red or white?
-----------------------------
I doubt it. But no one wearing anything old, used, patched, torn, or blood stained. Now that’s just weird.
SOLUTION:
Rip your stuff up. Patch it with rags. Sprinkle it with goat blood then piss on it to try bleaching it out. That will mimic the not quiet clean look our imaginary legionary is used to.

Physique?
--------------
Americans are generally too tall and many of us (me I admit) are too fat.
SOLUTION:
Lose some pounds and a few vertebrae. Also lift a couple of weights once in a while.

No scars?
-------------
Where are all the scars and battle wounds?
SOLUTION:
Everyone is encouraged to have some scars added via plastic surgery. Extra brownie points if you have a buddy do it with an old rusty knife and let the wounds fester a little. No one is allowed to serve as a Centurion unless they have some nice public scars to show. The senior centurion is the one missing the most appendages.

Hobnails?
-------------
Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine. The things we use for Hobnails are better suited for tap dancing than maintaining traction while stomping over a pile of dead and wounded barbarians.
SOLUTION:
Get a blacksmith to make some real BIG hobnails. EXPENSIVE. But hey if we have to redo everything else, shields, armor, etc. Why not. Damn the expense - XIIII mid 1st here we come.

Cruelty?
-----------
Where is the casual cruelty? The dog being kicked? (For that matter where are the dogs and rats that doubtless followed the Legions?) The centurion beating a legionary senseless for some minor infraction? Etc.
SOLUTION:
Well, I don’t see what to do about this that isn’t illegal and doesn’t invite arrest.

Prostitutes?
----------------
Well? Do you know any women that would enjoy being mid 1st century prostitutes?
SOLUTION:
See solution to cruelty above.

Slaves?
----------
See prostitutes above. Same problems apply.

I’m out.
Anyone else?
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Leg XX VV
Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
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#55
Let me say this about that...

No national club. Nah....

Several large national clubs? ....you betcha!

An annual event.. absolutely.. LAFE, AK 2006 is a great choice right now.

Competition is a good thing

The fun friendly inspirational rivalry between LEG IX and LEG VI is driving us both to improve kit and set highers standards and goals.

"And They saw that it was good"
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
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#56
I tried before to sell Dan the idea of trying to get a meeting (maybe online) of some of the senior reenactors (not me) and seeing if they couldn't hammer out some sort of concensus.

I failed.

Dan appears intent on imposing his vision.

Perhaps he will attract a following among those new to the hobby, but I think many who have dedicated years of effort to Roman reenating will be left with cold feet. (even if wearing udones)

Has anyone started a poll question on this?
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Leg XX VV
Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
Reply
#57
Quote:I tried before to sell Dan the idea of trying to get a meeting (maybe online) of some of the senior reenactors (not me) and seeing if they couldn't hammer out some sort of concensus.

I failed.

Dan appears intent on imposing his vision.

Perhaps he will attract a following among those new to the hobby, but I think many who have dedicated years of effort to Roman reenating will be left with cold feet. (even if wearing udones)

Has anyone started a poll question on this?
[size=150:1ntvpraw]N[/size]o poll... Dan DOES appear intent on this. Hey, I don't know ANYTHING about reenactors -- especially American Reenactors... the thing is, I DO feel something like this would help, IF it was loose and FUN and useful to it's members... not some dictatorial thing that tries to order everyone around ;-(
Best, DMV
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
a.k.a.: Marsh Wise
Legio IX Hispana www.legioix.org

Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt

"A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself." ~Mark Twain

[img size=150]http://www.romanobritain.org/Graphics/marsh_qr1.png[/img]
(Oooh, Marshall, you cannot use an icky modern QR code, it is against all policies and rules.)
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#58
Hey Dan,

You said: "...my aim is to compress the decades of trial and error to achieve a system of Roman reenactment comparable to "cutting edge" authentic CW reenactment utilizing the same "squad mess to contuburnia" approach."

Here's the problem. I honestly don't believe that in North America, RR (Roman Reenactment) will get as big as CW. There's the lack of a national interest that you have in CW since it actually happened with US involvement. Same for any other time period prior to say, the discovery of the New World. In Europe, I can see this...definately. They have the actual historical sites, they have the history there in place to promote their hobby, as well as a direct relation to roman ancestors which certainly fuels a person's desire to reenact. So here, in N. America, you lose a massive amount of interest based on that alone. I honestly don't think this hobby will grow to what CW or what RR will be in Europe.

"Yes many of the existing groups will not change, just as some CW groups never advanced past the "1963" mentality of three to five man "regiments" (or legions). "

Well, one thing I've learned is that going from a 12 man legion to a 3-5 man legion...there's a drastic reduction in politics. I love it. Looking back I have no idea why I wanted my group so big in the first place. The responsibility is far too much unless you have little else going on in your life, or you're at the point where you can spend lots of time and effort in your hobbies because the kids have moved out, you're retired, etc. etc. It all depends on your situation, and I don't want to stereotype anyone, but running a group takes a lot of work, time and money. Also, keeping it small keeps a group focused a lot more on the fun of it, rather than worrying about numbers, money, logisitics...etc. etc. I'd rather keep a small group who's more interested in the fun of the hobby than turning it into an actual "organization" with all the negative aspects that go along with that, such as (afore mentioned) politics, money issues, profit margins...did I mention politics? I'm only speaking for myself, but based on my own experiences and from what I've observed of other groups, keeping it small in this hobby is to our advantage.

"The point of the national legion is to offer advanced, authentic reenactors, coming from other periods, to have similarly authentic, immersion reenactment experiences in the Roman hobby, with realistic sized units,..."

Advanced...authentic? That's subjective, and opinion based. On a professional level those two things would be hard to categorize, on a hobbiest level they should be thrown out the window. Each person/group does what they can based on what they can do/afford. Hey, if it takes you 3 years to save up for that Coolus helm, so be it...save your money and don't buy the trooper helm. But some people (including myself) are forced to take shortcuts for a variety of reasons...and that's ok. As Marsvigilia pointed out, we'll never be the "real thing".

And what's a realistic sized unit? What happened to a Contubernium? That's what...8 men? I'm also pretty sure dismounted scouts operating out of a century wouldn't be comprised of 8 men...a half contubernium or less seems more like it to me. As far as this notion of mini-legions (aside from being a bit derogatory)...I'd rather see a mix of unit types, ranks and such to give me a larger idea of what each would look like and how they'd function, rather than a dozen copies of the same person. That's boring. And since this is a hobby, not an organization with a thousand members which needs to be governed, for policitcal, financial and organizational reasons, I have the freedom (thankfully) to add some spice and variety to it.

"As the group/system matures, I fully expect people who may be members of the various "mini-legions", to also be join the National legion for the occasional major event. Some reenactors want to be part of something "big", some want to keep it small. Different strokes for different folks. For me, reenactment doesn't seem "real" until realistic numbers are achieved."

Hey, that's cool...it's your idea, your vision of how you'd like things to be. Everyone's entitled to that. However, keeping an open mind to the fact that others do think differently, and accepting that is part of how we can avoid the politics which plague just about anything with more than 2 people.

"Although it is possible for many mini-legions to work together, they will always appear as a rabble with a dozen different shield designs, and time periods intermingled together."

A rabble? Now that wasn't necessary. And what you call a rabble I call interesting. I'd prefer to see variety over the same old, same old any day of the week. Given that there is NO evidence on how shield emblems were used, to say that this certain legion used that emblem throughout is simply unfounded and lacking anything more than supposition. There is a good chance that the emblem was varied between each cohort, or possibly the colour. So a varied patchwork quilt of shield emblems may in fact be closer to the mark than what your idea is. But then, that harkens back to accepting other people's ideas and not getting defensive about it should it differ to your own.

Marsh said: "By forcibly trying to assimilate the Roman world, you turn off those who would be your friends. ;-( Every one of us has the right to our own beliefs and ideas. If you want to sway us, do so nicely. Like many of us have told you before, this is a HOBBY, if it ain't fun, why do it?"
This I think lies at the heart of the issue. It's fine to share ideas and brainstorm, but taking it to the next level when you're one pebble amongst a sea of pebbles is asking to make waves. Again, the size of RR right now dictates that we don't need any type of national anything. And as I stated before, I don't think it will ever reach the size where it is necessary. All you'll be doing is creating your own pandora's box. Because I can guarantee you will have people withing your own organization that will want to do things differently, and it will cause a split. It's the way of organizations....no, wait, it's the way of the human.

Oh, and the only self-moderation Marsh practices is buying a 12 pack instead of a 24. :lol:

It ain't broke...don't fix it. There's enough co-ordination and co-operation between groups now that we don't need a national body. Everyone is just as happy to come to an event in their own era and unit colours, and I've yet to see this cause any friction or problems. Why change that? Things are great now...this need for regulations and structure to me signifies a desire for control in a hobby that has no need for it. Again, a business or a massive organization with an agenda...yes, by all means they should be governed, they should be standardized...like franchises and such. But there is a distinct difference between large, in place groups with singular purposes and goals (like CW), and smaller ones like RR groups.

What fits for one, doesn't for another and we must realize that the differences between what we do and what you Dan, want it to be are such that it's not feasible nor a good idea to try and execute.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#59
QUID NON LATINA


VII AUXILIA HABEO QUID COHORS APELLAMUS ET NON TRIBUNUS ET NON LEGATUS PROPTER HOC PUBLICA NON VIDEBUNT
aka., John Shook
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#60
John, in the future can you post in what is generally accepted as a language everyone can understand (that would be english)?

Secondly, you may want your latin to actually make sense, since what you said is this:


What not in latin

Seven supporting forces I have what we call cohort and not tribune and not legate because this the public things will not see


As you can see, that's awful sentence structure and use of grammer.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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