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U.S. National Legion?!
#16
Good Ideas
---------------
"A federation of groups that share knowledge, and can have fun."
We have that here, Marsh's list, various Legion site including XX, etc. But perhaps a confederation would be a better analogy than a federation.

"Auctioning off the kids to the neighbors."
My wife might complain, but she does anyway

"Hitch-hiking cross country in their Roman outfit."
Instead of a thumb you could stick out your pilum?

"Pay $20-30 a year to a governing body to have liability insurance at events."
Probably would cost more though if the limits were high enough to be useful.

"I don't need another magazine or journal."
There are numerous groups, and lists on the web. I need more paper rubbish like I need a pilum in my head.
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Leg XX VV
Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
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#17
[size=150:3uc7p1il]H[/size]ow about this this thought... most of us want to have some kinds of fighting reenactments... correct? About the ONLY event like this in the US is Lafe, also correct, yes? Is this the time period everyone wishes to fight in?

Having talked to Mark Graef ([size=75:3uc7p1il]inventor of the Graef Combat System[/size]), at length, about this today, I wonder... where could we start to do R_E_E_N_A_C_T_I_N_G??? Not the dog and pony shows to "edjakate the publik," but I mean reenactments in the sense of tacticals like Lafe?

What would blow your tunica up? Augustan Period? Claudian? Flavian? Trajanic? or beyond? WHERE DO WE START? I ask this w/out trying to invoke hatred, voodoo curses or long, 2-page messages about shield design or crap like that? And if you don't wish to do this kind of event, we shan't drag you, screaming, away from hearth and home, just don't go! Don't put it down, just don't go. However, if the idea get's you all gooey, then by all means, please jump on board!

Let's look at what we have IN COMMON, if we do that first, then maybe we can make things work. Rather than "I ain't doin' it because Joe "A" is an a-hole" or "They're farbs!"

And please, imagine the glass is half-full vs. half empty and let's think on it. And please don't call anyone's ideas dumb, you don't have to agree, you just have to be polite ([size=75:3uc7p1il]or Jasper will send out the RAT Punishment Team to cane your feet bloody -- he told me so himself[/size])
Best, DMV
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
a.k.a.: Marsh Wise
Legio IX Hispana www.legioix.org

Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt

"A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself." ~Mark Twain

[img size=150]http://www.romanobritain.org/Graphics/marsh_qr1.png[/img]
(Oooh, Marshall, you cannot use an icky modern QR code, it is against all policies and rules.)
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#18
Gooey?
Yes.

Alas, but for 20 years and 2 back surgeries...

For me, dog and pony shows and marching must be my limits, or I'll be reenacting from a wheel chair.

I must leave needle felt to others, but my heart yearns to take up shield and sword with you. I have spoken against Borgism, but not against this my friends, not against this.

As someone who is condemned to merely watch, may I offer this suggestion:
Rotate and tolerate.

Do different periods different battles. One year the Dacian Wars, another year Ceasar's Civil War. Only be forgiving of those who are a bit out of time. Repainting a shield may be doable, buying multiple helmets and loricas might get a bit expensive. (I personally love Trajan and the Claudian invasion of Britain.)

Rotate Tunics. One year wear red the next white. Neither side has a monopoly on truth on this question. I am partial to white, but I would wear red too if it's not imposed forever by fiat. I might draw the line at pink with red trim though.

But you can't rotate everything, so be tolerant of differences. Archeology of tomorrow will overturn our most basic tenets and then be overturned again.
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Leg XX VV
Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
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#19
Not happy...I just lost a massive post because the page expired...I F'N hate that.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#20
lafe is not the only fighting event, fort meigs has a tactical In which my unit participates. I think a national organization would be helpful if there were no limits put on time period, troop type etc.
aka., John Shook
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#21
disregard the quote, it slipped in there somehow, no qouting involved :oops:
aka., John Shook
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#22
Assuming the rules for combat and the weapon parameters are well established and agreed upon, I really don't see why you'd need to have every unit portraying the same time period. Or even why you'd WANT to! The variances in period are what make the individual units unique, and fun to check out (assuming they're portraying their periods accurately). Be they Republican or Hadrianic, all use pretty much the same weapons, and if a Spatha-armed 3rd-5th Century unit shows up, why should that stop the play? Geography makes it extremely unlikely that you'd ever get mass, interstate events going more than once a year; tri-state/regional events are far more likely. Consequently, let's not let the relatively trivial matter of shield blazons stop what is otherwise a fun idea, NFS combat. (Heck, we don't even know if the Roman shields themselves were entirely uniform throughout the legions! The evidence indicates not.)

I would also anticipate a shortage of barbarians across the board that would be interested in this. Initially, anyway, especially if we're taliking about combat within the US. There just aren't that many of them on this side of the Atlantic. Many combat scenarios would undoubtably be "civil war" actions by default, then. And in that event, having the participating units be visually different from one another would be a plus... seeing 75 guys with LEG XX shields face off against another 75 guys with identicle shields just doesn't do it for me.

I'm surprised no one has opened with, "So what color tunics would the über-legion wear... red or white?" Again, let's stay focused on the important stuff.

Now, if the discussion is "should we form a national legion irrespective of NFS combat?", my answer would be a resounding no. I actually want more diversity... accurate Republican legions, Praetorian cohorts, and auxilia units are sadly absent from the American scene. Looking at the array of units across the country, one might be tempted to call it the "Flavian-perion Legionary Portrrayal Club" rather than "Roman reenacting".

Severus
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#23
Hehehehe...ok Marsh, I'm going to devil's advocate you, since you started this! :lol:

"most of us want to have some kinds of fighting reenactments... correct?"

That's a broad statement...and without polling every member from every roman group it's insubstantiated. I think that most of the vocal members from RAT or RAG are interested in combat reenactments...but I don't feel they're representative of the actual number of reenactors out there, nor the varied wants of all the different kinds of reenactors.

"Is this the time period everyone wishes to fight in?"

I think it's a collective "no" to this one. I can't see anyone ditching their republican, late imperial etc. etc. gear for the simple reason of NFS combat at an event. It's far too much money to have a second set of equipment dated to the 1st century or so as well as whatever era you're preference lays with.

"I wonder... where could we start to do R_E_E_N_A_C_T_I_N_G??? Not the dog and pony shows to "edjakate the publik," but I mean reenactments in the sense of tacticals like Lafe?"

Hmmmm...speaking on my own behalf, I really have no desire to "pretend" to be Tiberius Magnus...my days of role playing ended long ago (I used to love D&D...he hee!). Tactical is something I did back in the army...that was a job (even though I enjoyed doing it!). Now, given that this is a hobby why would I want to make it into something competitive or serious?

My big issue with this though is the labels. (To use my best agent smith voice)...I haaate...labels. To me labelling an event or group as being "combat" or "display" is sewing the first seeds of division. It's one thing to technically label it based on era, or geographic as it pertains to history, but why base it on group philosophy? Why must we have just combat type events? Or label them as such? As Gaius stated we should be having as much variety as possible.

I hate to use them as an example, but when it comes to diversity, the SCA has a pretty good system going. You have the merchants, the fighters, the nobles, and the people that just like to get dressed up and prance around. They all interact (somewhat well) together, and everyone's happy. No one element is selectively isolated by being shown they are different. In fact, from what i've seen, being different is a good thing.

So, as it pertains to your post Marsh...you said "And if you don't wish to do this kind of event, we shan't drag you, screaming, away from hearth and home, just don't go!"

This is exactly what I mean about dividing Roman Reenacting. So if a group comes to Lafe (sorry to use it as an example Caius), and isn't interested in NFS combat, or "reenacting/role playing", are they turned away? Are they treated with derision because they're idea of a fun hobby doesn't fit the mould that you have created for it in your mind? You'll actually lose interest this way. You'll have less and less people coming to your events than say, if it was open to everyone. In fact, there's absolutely no reason why the people doing the NFS combat couldn't go on their own, do their thing, while the others do theirs. Especially if the land is big enough wherever the event is held. They do it at that SCA event in PA.

How can we have even the idea of a "national" legion when this is the groundwork we're laying for specific events?

Then your next line...you kind of contradict yourself by saying let's see what we all have in common. :wink:

So i'm not sure where you stand....not that it matters, this is all academic...but I think if we're actually going to go anywhere as a "group" regardless of local, we can't do so by pointing out where and how we're different. It's not even worth mentioning, because really, it doesn't matter.

I know you agree with me on this Marsh...that it's a hobby. But I think it's important that we respect people's differences in how they perceive and thus actually "do" it, and by all means, not dissallow their participation because of these differences.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#24
Quote:Not happy...I just lost a massive post because the page expired...I F'N hate that.
[size=150:2vgle2g2]W[/size]hat I do is to keep pre-viewing it, so it doesn't go bye-bye. Also, if you're worried, copy the post before you hit submit, then if it's gone... just repaste it in.
DMV
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
a.k.a.: Marsh Wise
Legio IX Hispana www.legioix.org

Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt

"A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself." ~Mark Twain

[img size=150]http://www.romanobritain.org/Graphics/marsh_qr1.png[/img]
(Oooh, Marshall, you cannot use an icky modern QR code, it is against all policies and rules.)
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#25
Quote:Not happy...I just lost a massive post because the page expired...I F'N hate that.

So are you going to retype it so we can all benefit from your wisdom?
Or having been frustrated once are you going to give up?
What kind of a Roman are you?
Determination, stubbornness, and a will to dominate.
These make a Roman a Roman.

;-) )
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Leg XX VV
Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
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#26
I don't own Lafe, and I am only a very interested observer and volunteer. Here is what I can tell you. This year 2005, we had many non-fighters at the event. We had a ratio of 3 to 1 Romans against the Barbarians, so some of our auxiliaries just switched sides, (my unit is an auxiliary unit). We had civilians sheltering in the fort, we had immunes who did gate guard but didn't do NFS combat, (we only had a few swords and pila this year, so not everyone who wanted to fight could all fight at the same time!) It is a Tactical event, because there is no display to non-re-enactors! That doesn't mean you have to go out on the road march or the patrol. If (like me) you are becoming more and more physically challenged, you can do stuff like guarding the gates, helping with the food service, manning the catapult, cleaning the commander's armor, or one of many other tasks the roman soldier did. There is also to be a vicus where older retired soldiers and families can set up a tavern, or a bakery or even sell lamps and pottery.
I am told that the Celtic camp over the hill not only has room for warriors, but also needs goatherds, farmers, and someone to cut firewood and make charcoal for the kiln. That being said, this just isn't a display event because everyone there is involved and there is no one to display anything to. Maybe in the future we'll set up a Friday and invite schools to come and visit, then you can display your whatever until it falls off Big Grin (or you get arrested...
Caius Fabius Maior
Charles Foxtrot
moderator, Roman Army Talk
link to the rules for posting
[url:2zv11pbx]http://romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=22853[/url]
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#27
Quote:So are you going to retype it so we can all benefit from your wisdom?
Or having been frustrated once are you going to give up?
What kind of a Roman are you?
Determination, stubbornness, and a will to dominate.
These make a Roman a Roman.
[size=150:3afn78gh]I[/size] think he did, which was the long Devil's Advocate thing to me. :roll:

Which by the way Magnus, you can't bust on me too much for, it was the middle of the night, I was drinking beer and well... ya get's what ya gets ;-Þ I think it would be nice if we could agree to work together, but not some huge, penistic organization that will tell me what underwear to have on.

And personally, I DO think we need to look at our commonalities and stop worrying about the differences. I too do NOT want to see ONE big, vanilla legion. I like all the funkiness that is here. Everyone does something different and to me, that's good. If we get together, I seriously doubt that we'll have any fights about people WANTING to be centurio -- most don't care. It's a big pain in the ass to be in charge. I too, am suspicious of people who actually WANT to be in charge. If they are forced to be there, or just want to fix things, that's one thing, but who wants all the @(#$**&@#$@ headaches of "command" of hobbyists Confusedhock:
Marsh steps off the Soapbox
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
a.k.a.: Marsh Wise
Legio IX Hispana www.legioix.org

Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt

"A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself." ~Mark Twain

[img size=150]http://www.romanobritain.org/Graphics/marsh_qr1.png[/img]
(Oooh, Marshall, you cannot use an icky modern QR code, it is against all policies and rules.)
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#28
Quote:I think he did, which was the long Devil's Advocate thing to me. :roll:

Yes, I think our posts crossed in the ether.

Quote:I seriously doubt that we'll have any fights about people WANTING to be centurio -- most don't care. It's a big pain in the ass to be in charge.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. Maybe it's my misunderstanding. But just because you play the Centurion or the Tribune or the Legate doesn't necessarily mean that you're in charge. In fact didn't someone say that in the Civil War reenacting you couldn't be both an officer and in charge at the same time. In the last Passion play I saw Pontius Pilot wasn't in charge and didn't have the leading role either. He was just a supporting actor.

Quote:I too, am suspicious of people who actually WANT to be in charge. If they are forced to be there, or just want to fix things, that's one thing, but who wants all the @(#$**&@#$@ headaches of "command" of hobbyists Confusedhock:
I'm glad I'm not the only one suspicious of the apparently power hungry. Also I've done a little work (very little) in a couple of political campaigns. The paid staff have to be very careful how they handle volunteers, particularly if they aren't even students doing it for some sort of credit, but are true volunteers. If you burn them out, or piss them off, or just make the job not fun then you lose you're volunteers. Then you're SOL. It does take skill and the right personality to do it right. A divisive personality will kill the effort. I can't imagine that trying to manage a motley crew of opinionated Roman reenactors would be an easier job or not require at least an equally deft touch.
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Leg XX VV
Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
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#29
Does something like the Lafe-event excist in Europe? It sounds very cool!
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#30
Having viewed those Italian guys's videos that were posted around here a few weeks ago I think they made a fine example of looking past differences. They had a mix of scutums and armor, some blue, some red, some different patterns, some segmentata, some hamata, bt they got out and did things. Like road marhces and all kinds of evolutions and they looked great. They were reenacting but they were also doing display stuff too. Then they had other times they got together to fight. They had leather segmentatas, and whatever swords (felt? pvc? wood?)but you got to see the formations and the fighting. They had what looked like a full century of guys plus skirmishers and enemies too. Looks like they did stuff for crowds, showing how the guys trained and working out little scenarios.

Now that's a fine start. It was less relevant that they were not all exactly the same than that we got to see roman legionaries doing roman legionary stuff. It's a mix of doing everything.

The hobby needs young guys to grow in this direction, and most young guys are not going to be very attracted by seeing a bunch of old farts (Hey I'm one too) standing around strutting like peacocks, but doing essentially little. Several well thought out events can attract recruits but the young guys are more apt to want to fight march and do all aspects of soldiering not just pitching tents. And already many fine legions are doing these things on a smaller level. As someone said above there would be room for people who wanted to be static, and then those that wanted action.

Here in the US as all are aware there's a very strong tradition of ACW reenacting and it's success facilitated a lot of cross over into other periods to where now there's a very health WW2 reeanctor peoriod with some events reaching hundreds if not a thousand participants. (Not to mention many immense SCA events) People will spend money, commit time and travel, if it looks fun and they feel they are going to capture the essential experience of being a soldier of that time.

Anyways just thinking out loud. If I could only inherit a couple mil!

Los
Los

aka Carlos Lourenco
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