Udones

[Tarbicus]

Nowt wrong with the colour, just the potential torrents of abuse after a brand new 'colour war' hock:

[Robert Vermaat]

Just tell them to 'keep their socks on'!

[santell]

Ok, what is the consensus? Knit socks are ok, naelbinding socks better or no, sewed fabric socks are authentic, which?
Juan Santell

[Carlton Bach]

Ok, what is the consensus? Knit socks are ok, naelbinding socks better or no, sewed fabric socks are authentic, which?
Juan Santell

I'm not entirely sure this represents consensus, but from my research I got the impression that

-naalbinding socks are 'best' because you can work from an actual extant example, but we have no proof of them in a military context

-knitted socks are OK if you are not aiming for 100% accuracy, but should not be used with hand-spun, hand-woven, vegetable-dyed diamondweave twill tunics.

-sewn socks are good as extant examples can be duplicated, but again no military context can be proven.

-either footwraps or sewn socks that leave the toes and heel free are good for a military context (I think it was the Cancellaria relief), but we have no extant examples to work from.

-modern socks are bad, but not baaaaaaaaaaaaaad

-tennis socks are awful

[Cacaius]

.... hand-spun, hand-woven, vegetable-dyed diamondweave twill tunics .. .

Sorry for small OT .. but do you know anyone who sell such tunics ? I am interested to know the source and price for such work.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Email me, I can get them for you.

[Lepidina]

I'm not entirely sure this represents consensus, but from my research I got the impression that

-naalbinding socks are 'best' because you can work from an actual extant example, but we have no proof of them in a military context

-sewn socks are good as extant examples can be duplicated, but again no military context can be proven.

We do have letters from soldiers either saying, "please send socks," or "thanks for the socks," so we know they had socks. Given that there is at least 1 period example of a sewn sock and some later period examples of naalbound socks, I think it is a safe bet to say that soldiers most likely had sewn socks and might have had naalbound socks. Note that the earliest socks are the "toe socks" for wearing with sandals and come from Egypt so it's hard to tell if naalbinding made it all the way to places like Brittania. Later period Vikings definitely had naalbinding so it had to travel at some point.

-either footwraps or sewn socks that leave the toes and heel free are good for a military context (I think it was the Cancellaria relief), but we have no extant examples to work from.

I think those are find if you are trying to prevent blisters and need a little warmth but not so great for hiking through the snow or on really cold days.

-knitted socks are OK if you are not aiming for 100% accuracy, but should not be used with hand-spun, hand-woven, vegetable-dyed diamondweave twill tunics.

I'll give you that the naalbound socks do look an awful like knitting unless you get up close so here's my idea to "fudge" them so that you have something that will give you the shape of something naalbound but without having to do all that fiddly naalbinding.

Deb's method for cheater Roman socks for people who don't want to sew their own:

First off, find someone who knits socks and ask them to knit you a pair using 100% wool that isn't surperwash and is no larger than DK/sportweight. Make them just high enough to clear the tops of your calligae. Here's the clincher - do NOT put ribbing at the top. The socks I've seen though about 1800 have very little, if any ribbing at the top. Sometimes you get garter stitch but I believe that this was done only to prevent the sock top from rolling as if you knit with straight stockingette or stocking stitch, the tops will roll down. Ribbing of more than an inch or more comes in around 1850 or so. The Coptic sock does not have ribbing or garter stitch at the top and if you notice, it rolls a bit at the top.

Knit said socks about a half size bigger than normal. Then take them and dunk them in some hot water and swoosh them around a bit followed by dunking it in some cold water and swoosh it around a bit. This will felt it down so that the stitch definition get blurry. Continue the hot/cold dunking until it is the size you want your sock to be. Let dry. This should produce a more form-fitting socks like a naalbound sock but blur the stitches enough that it doesn't scream "knitting" to knitting geeks like myself. Note you need to do this with relatively thin yarn unless you want a felted boot.

Deb

[Lepidina]

Look at this:
http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/fashio ... t.php?id=5

Take the picture and copy it into photoshop. Blow it up about 200% and you'll see that the stitches are all twisted. Knitting makes nice "v" shapes. That's the distinction of naalbinding v. knitting. It is hard with the finer knit stuff so you have to look close and then it is unmistakeable.

deb

[Robert Vermaat]

Egyptian children's socks, 4th c. AD:


Knitted children's socks, 4th c. AD:


Knitted Arab cotton sock, 1300-1100 BC)

[Cacaius]

At the begining we should also mentioned that there are many different knotless-netting techniques (called also naalbinding in scandinavia today) which gives you different patterns.

This second one looks the same like pattern gained on a sock from Coppergate in York (X c.), which you can see here
And reconstructed here .. which is made in naalbound technique.

To understand more please read those Lepidina's explanations

[Luca]

http://www.romanhideout.com/legiov/fabr ... s/temp.jpg

[Cacaius]

Thanks for it.

We call it in my language as "buttery butter"
We see knotless netting technique on diagrams and hear "knitting ... knitting .. knitting"
How old is this description ?

EVERY book about knitting history I have seen, BEGINS from an explenation that knotless netting technique (called also naalbinding) its something different from knitting. Of course its similar, but different.

Its like difference in making ceramic on wheel or without the wheel. Final product its "nearly" the same. Making process its "nearly" the same. But different. And its important. Till 14 c in Poland we didnt know wheel (for making ceramic of course ) .. ceramic was built from strips/rolls of clay which where attached together and then surface was polished by hand.


Its shame that other archeologist who dont know much about textiles history even dont try to read books about knitting ... and then they "produce" such descriptions ..

[Lepidina]

Interesting site and it highlights the confusion with "knitting" and "crossed-loop knitting" or "one-needle knitting". There's "knitting" as in the technique of creating fabric with two or more sticks and yarn and "knitting" in a more generic sense which means to weave together like a broken bone which is "knitted" back together after healing. Terms are flip-flopped all the time and unless the writer or curator is a knitter, naalbinder or otherwise interesting in textile arts, most of the time the generic term of "knitting" is used.

Also note that the article says that it dates from the "Roman" period. That's several hundred years so which "period" does that mean? It's like saying "Victorian" which could mean over 60 years of history.

deb