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04-27-2004, 05:38 PM

I am not quite sure your uncle bred cattle out of pure philanthropy. I don't see anything wrong with making money, I see something wrong in losing money. 
And what do you think they do with the bull once it's dead, they toss it away? 
So it boils down to that: born, castrated, killed and eaten, or born, not castrated, frolicked freely with cows, died fighting and eaten. In both ways it's about the exploitation of the lesser species by the specie that is at the top of the food chain. Can't help it if it's us.. 
In both cases they don't lament about their fate simply because they don't know it. 
I don't attribute human sentiments to animals. You do. The toros are not conscious of that "cruelty". They are not conscious they are going to die. They just do what they have to do, by instinct. 
Personaly, I think we should abolish soccer. Now that's a unusually cruel treatment to animals.. 
And I wouldn't take a kid to a ice hockey game... Edited by: <A HREF=http://b30.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 4/27/04 7:40 pm

04-27-2004, 07:40 PM

You've strange values then Antonius. You seem to be the one advocating the bull fights, yet find a hockey game too violent? And I can only assume then, from your statement that you would take a young child to watch a bull get killed? I find something incredibly disturbing about that. They don't take the losing team in hockey and slaughter them for hamburgers. 
 
My uncle bred cattle for food...what a stupid comment for you to make. It was the exploitation which you are finally speaking of which was my point. Why are you avoiding it until now? 
 
It wasn't me my friend who had the emotional transferance to the bull. I was pointing out the shortcomings of the human value system. Don't twist my words to further your own arguements. 
 
I don't care if the bull is eaten afterwords. The ends don't justify the means. Such a sentiment is disheartening coming from someone like you. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

04-27-2004, 09:14 PM

Don't shoot. I surrender. I'm French, remember? 
I was hoping my comment on soccer would raise hell but nothing so far.. Never mind. 
My comment on hockey was a joke. My personal opinion is that if the hockey players concentrated on playing hockey instead of bashing each other over the head at regular intervals it would be more pleasurable to watch. But obviously it's a minority opinion. 
I agree my values are a bit unusual but I don't worry too much about it, since I know and befriend a lot of people whom in my view, have quite unusual values too.. 
I also agree on the shortcomings of the human value system, but I am old enough to know that you have no other choice than live with it. 
I am journalist, for Gods sake! I professionnally deal on an everyday basis with all the shortcomings of the human value system you can think of and then some you cannot even think of!! 
Besides if everybody was perfect and liked the same things, the place would be totally unbearable. You can have a horrifiying idea of what it could be when comes Superbowl day, f'rinstance... 
As I wrote, I saw my first bullfight in Bilbao when I was ten. Still technically a child. I loved every minute of it and yes, honestly at some point I secretly hoped the matador would get it. It would be only fair, I thought.. 
I bet you something: I take you to a corrida. A live one, not on TV. A nice one, with big names, and before the end I'll see you standing up and screaming like the rest. It works. It's a reflex, it's in your genes. 
Blood lust if you will, but everybody has it. You included. You deny yourself this, you deny yourself part of you own humanity, I think. But there will be more than blood lust: you'll be afraid for the man down there. You will feel very much his very humanity; and you will feel sorry, sometimes very sorry, for the bull. Do I care to explain? I wish I could.. It's part of the corrida. Part of the mystery. 
I'm sorry I disheartened you but I'd feel more sorry if I didn't write what I feel about things I like and things I don't. 
I won't comment on what you said about the criminals being executed in a reality show because I am sure that was a joke too. 
It begins with "banning" --a nice politically correct word-- the corrida, or assaulting people wearing fur coats, and one day we'll end up with no more horse races in the name of the Holy PETA.. 
And that'll be the day when I will pick up the Rightful Rifle of the Lord... 
Amen. Edited by: <A HREF=http://b30.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 4/27/04 11:57 pm

DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS · 04-27-2004, 10:53 PM

Quote:<hr>Don't shoot. I surrender. I'm French, remember?<hr> 
Okay, I'm much too polite to have even joked that ;-ÃƒÅ¾ 
 
As for Corrida, well, I've never seen one live. Probably would be exciting... however, well, I'd most likely like to see the Matador get it... it's like hunting -- I don't hunt. I figure since I don't relly like deer meat, why kill something. If I was to hunt, well, it'd have to be against something that had a fair chance of bagging ME. Fair is fair. 
 
Anyway, I also agree that it would be better to go out in a blaze of glory, rather then being simply meat. 
DMV a.k.a Marsh the Surly DECIMUS MERCATIUS VARIANUS 
 
LEGIO IX HISPANA 
NorCal Chapter 
 
Netscape Aim/AOL screen name: Sturmkatze 
 
Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt.

04-27-2004, 11:46 PM

Dragging this threat back to Roman subjects, (ok, it's off-topic) - The Umbricius Scaurus monument in Herculaneum depicted a bestiarius wielding a sword and cape, the classical equipment of the torero. It's not clear what animal he is fighting, but bulls are depicted on the monument.

05-02-2004, 12:13 PM

To answer the historical part of the issue. I found this brief history of bullfighting on the site linked below. I edited a few mistakes too.. 
"Bullfighting is certainly one of the best known, although the most polemical Spanish popular custom. 
The "Fiesta" could not exist without the Toro Bravo, a species of bull of an archaic race that is only preserved in Spain. Formerly this bull's forebears, the primitive urus, were spread out over wide parts of the world. Many civilizations revered them, the bull-cult in Crete is well-known. The Bible reports on sacrifices of bulls in honour to the divine justice. Also in the religious ceremonies of Iberian tribes living in Spain in prehistorical times bulls played an important part. 
The origins of the Plaza, the bullring, probably are not the Roman amphitheaters but the Celtiberian temples where those ceremonies were held. In the province of Soria, close to Numancia, one of them is conserved and it is supposed that there bulls were sacrificed to the Gods. 
While the cult to the bull goes back to Iberians, it was the Greek and Roman influences that converted it into a spectacle. 
During the middle-ages it was a diversion for the aristocracy to fight the bull on horseback. It was a good training for war. It was called "la suerte de caÃƒÂ±as". In the 18th century this tradition was more or less abandoned and the poorer population invented the bullfight on foot. Francisco Romero was a key-figure in laying the rules for that new sport. 
For its fans, the "aficionados" the Corrida is an art more than a sport, not to speak about the challenge of the man fighting against the beast. It is an archaic tradition that has survived in this country, just as the Toro Bravo did." 
As for the question: are you for the bull or the matador. I am for both. 
www.red2000.com/spain/toros/

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