Flying Wedge banned from football

[Los456]

So a wedge can not be effective against all opponents or formations? I suppose that's hardly news. Different tools for different problems at different times.

I'm likewise amused by arguments about how dangerous or lethal it is to be the first few guys in the formation as some kind of evidence against wedges. What's that got o do with anything? War is dangerous, guys get killed. It's never stopped anyone from either volunteering to be the first jamoke up front or being ordered to be the first jamoke up front.

BTW weren't there similar cavalry formations used by the Companion Cavalry vs Persians for some time?

Los

p.s. I actually have no position for or against wedges but find the discussion interesting.

[marsvigilia]

I've got an off the wall question.

Were battering rams ever used against infantry formations?

[Hibernicus]

The problem from my experience is that the lead elements who charge forward at speed either get ?killed? or trip and pile up. In a few seconds the entire running flying wedge bogs down. This under modest to heavy resistence. Even worse if the ground is rough or uneven, or littered with small shrubs or clumps of grass... or the dead and dying and their discarded gear

What has worked best are formations several soldiers abreast and deep that seem to offer the enemy gaps or weaknesses but are in practice traps or ploys :
- to cause him to turn flanks, even if its only a few men,
- to cause men to look away, become distracted,
- to cause them to become fearful that they may be flanked en masse,
- to cause him to go defensive or bunch up, making weapons use difficult

In general there is no reason to slam into an enemy shieldwall or formation.
Run towards it certainly, if that's the best tactic, in good order, and when you return to a fast walk a few paces form the enemy line, reform and then walk into him... to begin grinding away at him...

I can envision using Auxilia to charge at an enemy to soften his lines, cause casualties, disrupt his ability to move, and so on..... this followed by the more disciplined Legios who begin the steady work of grinding away at him.

I've used this tactic to great success but the troops used to slam into an enemy, ...flying wedge... were expendable.. often far less skilled and or disciplined. Works great against his best units, atriting them softening them for the final blow...

[Los456]

It could be that the wedge didn't actually have a point of one guy but several guys. After all you can run your finger over a steak knife and cut it deeply but you can't run your finger over the prow of a battle ship and cut it deeply. However a battle ship at speed could ram and slice through another ship "like butter".

Los

[marsvigilia]

On the other hand maybe this would be an early opportunity for having a trouble maker take point.

Everything old is new again.

;-) )

[Mithras]

I had to show you this picture from Comitatus' event at Bolsover Castle: John Conyard faces up to pur cuneus. Biggest and heaviest guy at the point!!

[Tarbicus]

He's at the point of what? Air?

[Dan Diffendale]

And of course would he be doing that ducking maneuver if all those spears were levelled at him?

[Hibernicus]

reference the photo....

If he were charging without a shield he'd never make it to the shield wall if the spears were leveled!

Another thing you would want to do when charging a shield wall at full speed is to attack a seam... the overlap of two shields... the inside overlap like the one just to the attacker's right.. we call it "shoot the gap". Another phrase I've heard is "pop the cork".. create an opening and exploit it... Very tough to do if the shieldmen are prepared.... "EXPECTATE!!" ...braced in position and backed up by their fellow shieldmen, the ones behind them

I've seen two ranks of braced shieldmen stop 10 times their number...
Practice!

[Antonius Lucretius]

The problem with american football is that you can pass the ball forward. Hencer the usefulness of the flying wedge. Indeed, you just form a wedge around the ball carrier and smash your way through.
In rugby football you can only pass the ball backwards, so the ball carrier is always at the front trying to make a wedge all by himself like that courageous "miles" in the picture.
Much funnier, I think, for having tried it..
Also, you can only tackle the ball carrier, although, unfortunately, this rule is slowly changing.
As for the ancestor of those two interesting games it was a game called the Soule, in France, where it was still practiced, albeit in a more civilized form than earlier on, due to the existence of laws dealing with assault and battery..
It goes on like this: Teams are formed by two neighbouring villages, each led by a "Champion".. The average distance is 6/10 miles between two villages, in France.
The ball is halfway between the two villages and is thrown in the air by a "notable" (the mayor, the local priest..) After moments of intense violence, someone eventually gets the ball and attempts to bring it back to his own village with the help of his team.
The rules are simple: firearms, combat planes, artillery and other war implements are forbidden, besides that, it's a free for all...
That includes ambushes pre-set before the game begins... Good military training. I fancy the idea that the Gauls used to play that game with the head of one of their revered enemies.. 8)
But the first reference we have dates back from the 12th Century CE. although some think that it's an offshoot of the harpastum, a similar game practiced by the roman soldiers.

[hoplite14gr]

Thessalians, Thracians, Skythians, Compagnions, Romans, Huns, Vikings, Byzantines, Teutonic Knights etc etc etc....
If the wedge was ineffective why all these guys bothered to use it?
Kind regards.

[Salvianus]

:lol:
I see I'm late to the discussion, but I believe the above photo shows John in the role of campidoctor demonstrating how the cohesion of the formation might be tested in training & so the public could see the relative strength of interlocked shields.

Although if I had to try to flatten John I'd want a full cuneus behind me too - even if he was only armed with a staff! :wink:

[Tarbicus]

Scroll down to the last post by Flavius Josephus:
Breaking out of mass arrests

Forget the context, and don't forget, it wasn't me.... honest guv.

[Salvianus]

Interesting snippet of evidence, Tarbicus.

I can see a common link between re-enactment & civil disturbance - in my experience, there is usually an aspect of restraint on both sides, a general wish to avoid out & out violence. I think this adds to the effectiveness of the wedge in these environments, as a conscientious person on the receiving end will be inclined to fall back so as to avoid injuries to either side.

I agree with Hibernicus about the timing & use of the wedge - it might be costly or even futile to attack well ordered, determined troops in this way, but one might seek to charge a faltering line or gap. I understand this was true of cavalry charges which were suicidal in the wrong circumstances but which could turn a battle used appropriately at the decisive moment.