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Roman Military Tents Carried in sections by the Men
#16
Ok guys i'm taking an interlectual beating here... but in the imortal words of that well known Philospher misterT "just bring it"

Still it was a thought and we must explore every avenue if we are to get to the truth about stuff... many thanks guys, but i'm still going to make one anhow, even in scale just to see how it turns out.

Regard Kormanus
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#17
"Just suppose this was indeed a tent folded up and attached to the furca, and that your personal belongings like a spoon, comb, eating utensils, etc., were all wrapped up in your cloak, and a sudden downpour occurs"

Ahh OK I see where the problem is. You are going on the assumption that when it's raining (Doesn't matter if it's drizzle or a driving rain") That legionaries are going to scramble to keep dry while on the march. It just ain't so. this is the lot of the infantryman, always wet and tired, just trudge on through the stuff from time immemorial. Wool tunics have a great ability to retain warmth when wet. As would the wool cloak. And better to suck it up and wait till the end of the day, when you set up camp to get a roof over your head (Assuming the tactical situation allows it).

Los

Smile
Los

aka Carlos Lourenco
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#18
Ave Los456,
Believe me, I know the lot of an infantryman, as for years I was an airborne paratrooper/infantryman serving as an 81mm mortar gunner in the U.S. Army's 101st Airborne Division (Screaming Eagles---Rakkasans), so I know firsthand the downsides to being a "grunt". I also know that although every situation can not be so, they do not always just sit out in the rain without some kind of shelter or body coverings. This is why soldiers are issued cloaks (or in the modern day, rain ponchos). The point I am trying to get across is not whether it is a situation in which they can or cannot use their cloak in the rain, but what they are going to do with their personal belongings if they are wrapped up in the cloak and the soldier finds it a situation in which he CAN use his cloak. It wouldn't make good sense to pull all of your belongings out of your cloak so that you could put it on in bad weather, and then have to hide the items under leaves somewhere to keep them dry, or run through the rain to put them in the wagon, etc., now would it? That's all I'm trying to point out. :wink:
Lucius Aurelius Metellus
a.k.a. Jeffrey L. Greene
MODERATOR
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#19
Quote:we must explore every avenue if we are to get to the truth about stuff

Amen to that!

Good luck with the project!

-Gordak
AKA: Sam Johnson
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#20
One of the main problems with the idea of a composite tent is the question how to assemble it properly. I have to admit I have never seen a reconstruction of a Roman leather tent from close up, but according to the many articles by Carol van Driel-Murray on Roman tents, they used a quite complex method of stitching the leather panels together - which would have made the tent perfectly watertight (if it is greased properly).

You simply cannot do this kind of stitching in a few hours, then open the seams on the next day...
I do some leatherworks myself and I guess to sew 8 components together would take at least a day - even with the entire contubernium at work, which is not possible since the guys would also have to march for hours, dig trenches, do the cooking, stand around on guard, perform minor repairs to the loricae and other equipment etc.
It might be possible to lash the components together - but then how do you keep it watertight ?

And I am pretty happy to have a woolen cloak when it's pouring down :wink:
Florian Himmler (not related!)
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#21
Quote:One of the main problems with the idea of a composite tent is the question how to assemble it properly.
<snip>
Quote:It might be possible to lash the components together - but then how do you keep it watertight ?

Are you familiar with 20th century British Army tents? They're also used a lot by scouts and other groups (and probably other armies).

They are commonly modular: I put one up recently that had two ends and as many middle sections as you liked (about 5-6' per section). Those sections included the roof and the walls in one piece, but I have used others that have the roof and the walls separately.

The lashing system is common to an awful lot of different tent designs - ridge, bell and frame. Essentially you have one edge with eyelets along it, and the other has loops of rope. Each loop is just the right length to go through one eyelet and run along the edge of the canvas to the next; the next loop goes through its eyelet and the previous loop; and so on to the end of the seam. When you're familiar with it (ie after about 2 minutes) it's very quick to put together and quicker to undo, requires no knots which can get jammed (especially in the rain), and provides a solid join (the two bits of canvas overlap each other).

In some ways it can be faster than dealing with single-piece tents, as the unfolding of smaller pieces is much simpler, and there's not so much standing around trying to work out whether the tent is inside out, sideways or back to front, and then having four people try to correct it in different ways simultaneously.

As far as mobility goes: if a tent is 45 pounds, that is too much for a single man to carry in one go and so the tent needs the mule. If it is split into 8 six-pound bundles (say, 2 roof, 4 side walls, 2 end walls) then it can still be carried by the mule, but it can also be split among the contubernium if required. That provides some flexibility and therefore more mobility. What do you do if your mule dies, or goes lame, when you have a 45 pound lump of leather to carry? Good luck getting the quarterbloke to issue you another mule without the appropriate dockets, and I'm glad I'm not the one struggling along with that through the rain.

Normal caveats apply of course: "could have done it" isn't the same as "did it", etc etc.

Cheers,

Andrew
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#22
Dear Andrew,

"Essentially you have one edge with eyelets along it, and the other has loops of rope. Each loop is just the right length to go through one eyelet and run along the edge of the canvas to the next; the next loop goes through its eyelet and the previous loop; and so on to the end of the seam."

sounds like a very ingenious system !

A question to our tent experts - I know little more about Roman leather tents than what has been published by Carol van Driel-Murray.
Have there been any finds which suggest the above mentioned method was used for Roman tents ? Perhaps for the entrance ?
Dan, do you know something about this ?


"What do you do if your mule dies, or goes lame, when you have a 45 pound lump of leather to carry? Good luck getting the quarterbloke to issue you another mule without the appropriate dockets"

In such a case you just need a new mule anyway because the mule has to carry the hand mill (ca. 30 kg). I have never tried to carry a mill over long distances but I doubt it is easy :wink:
A solution might be to disassemble the mill into its two basic components and load one of them on the calo and the other one on another unfortunate being... Not a good compromise and I think it would lead to the necessity of abandoning other equipment for this.

A replacement mule would work better...
Florian Himmler (not related!)
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