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Quote:Ok, This may have already been suggested before but I'd like to hear your opinions on this thought. It strikes me strange that a roman soldier always had to wait for his tent to arrive on a cart for him and his other 7 members of his squad to erect, it also strikes me that a roman soldier never carried anything that could not be used for the construction of a marching camp or to defend himself. We as reenactors are constantly loading ourselves down with pots, cloaks, tools etc to illustrate what a Roman soldier may have carried on campaign, however if his tent was on a cart, why the hell would he be carrying tools for, surely these would be on a cart or pack mule / horse also.
What I'm suggesting is this, the pack that we all so carefully make as depicted on Trajan's column, is not a pack, but a sectionalised piece of a tent, folded and hung on the rings that would be used for attaching guys to...
A clever idea, but the evidence doesn't seem to support it. Probably isn't really necessary, either. When the lead troops arrive at the camp site, they'll be spending an hour or two entrenching (hence the tools!). Probably the tents will have arrived on the pack mules by then. Since each century's mules are parked in front of their tents, presumably there are either soldiers or camp slaves detailed to get the mules to that century's camp site when they arrive. They may even have time to put the tents up before the rest of the troops get done digging, but there may be other duties more important (water, fires, fodder, food, latrines). If each contubernium is packing their own mule in the morning, and one of them or their slave is guiding the mule during the march, it's a pretty safe bet that mule and tent will arrive at the right part of the camp that evening (under normal circumstances!).
The description of the loads carried by the men in Josephus don't mention tent parts, though I don't recall if there is a specific reference to the tents being carried by the mules. While he says that each legionary carried one of each kind of tool, it's more likely that each man carried only ONE main tool, and you'd still have 2 or 3 of each (shovel, dolabra, e-tool) per contubernium. (Rhetorical alert! Here I have used Josephus' excellent detail to argue that he would have mentioned the tent pieces if they were carried by the men, then I turn right around and dismiss his details as impractical! Ha!) The bundle seen on Trajan's Column matches the size of a rolled cloak (doubling as the bedding) very nicely. In addition, the tent section from Vindolanda included most of a wall and a health chunk of roof, along with some of one end--and there were no hints that it could be dismantled into sections.
Hyginus does say that each century only puts up 8 tents, since 2 tentfuls of men will be on guard duty at any point.
I also thought of using the packpole as a tent upright a while back. Never tried anything with it, though, and the ridgepole is still a problem. Did we ever decide if the packpoles shown on the Column actually had a crossbar or not? Look at the way the bundles are tied, and how they droop at the ends...
Gotta run! Valete,
Matthew/Quintus
PS: Yes, I DO have to add more details and photos to the Legio XX page on Tents! Soon. No, really.
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
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I agree on the unfeasibility of dismantling a common tent. Anyway, there were simpler affairs, 'individual' tents in the from of a square made of several standard goat leather pannels sewn together. The Deurne items were wrapped in one of those 'tents' and Carol van Driel writes that some more have been found elsewhere (one at Vindolanda). Perhaps some of them could be joined in campaign to form something bigger but not a standard tent, in any case.
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How much does one of these 8 man leather tents weigh?
Could perhaps one soldier carry just the tent but be relieved of most his other equipment to be carried by his mates? And have the duty rotated, assigned to newbe, or whomever is on the centurians shit list?
Oh, I personally like the idea of the furcas being used as tent poles. If the cross pieces aren't connected with a rivet it would be a reletively simple matter to tie and untie them. There are knots that will hold every bit as well as a rivet even on un-notched poles. Maybe better. Plus you have the rope handy for the tent as well. Just seems efficient to me.
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Quote:How much does one of these 8 man leather tents weigh?
Could perhaps one soldier carry just the tent but be relieved of most his other equipment to be carried by his mates? And have the duty rotated, assigned to newbe, or whomever is on the centurians shit list?
Junkelmann's tent came to 28.5 kg for just the leather. Once the rope, poles and pegs were added, it came close to 40. So the idea of using the furca as a tentpole would help, but I still don't see any Roman soldier humping an extra 28 kilos.
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Yes, 28kg does seem like a lot for one soldier even if relieved of all his other burdens. It was just a thought
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tents poles
On a number of occasions over the years a center beam for one of our canvas tents was left behind or broken.
A rope will suffice so long as the uprights themselves are tautly staked out... all the tension being on the ropes.. none on the fabric of the tent. The center rope can be pulled quite tightly though the tent sags a bit
We've discussed using furca and recognize the possibility. On one occasion we used two furca to support a center rope as the center pole didn't make it to the event. The sag was greatly reduced.
Hibernicus
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Quote:I agree on the unfeasibility of dismantling a common tent. Anyway, there were simpler affairs, 'individual' tents in the from of a square made of several standard goat leather pannels sewn together. The Deurne items were wrapped in one of those 'tents' and Carol van Driel writes that some more have been found elsewhere (one at Vindolanda). Perhaps some of them could be joined in campaign to form something bigger but not a standard tent, in any case.
Aitor
Could it be that the "A Frame" tents were used in a base camp like setting away from any village/fort/whatever, and the individual square panels were used, set up lean to style, by soldiers on the move/on the front line?
Also, do you happen to have any information such as demensions of the individual tents, and the panels that made them up? Were their rope attachments anywhere on them? Making an individual tent is more feasible for myself, as I don't have a contubernium with me 99% of the time.
Cheers,
Adam
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Per some earlier comments on this post, the tents displayed at Nashville WERE NOT the tents Deepeeka is offering.
The large tent was especially made for me and would be better described as as "senior centurion tent". The Deepeeka centurion tent would be smaller, to comply with how much space a regular centurion would be authorized in the camp.
The other leather tents were those of LEG XIIII brought from Germany, including the Newstead style tent used on the Alpine March and Limes Ride with Dr. Junkelmann.
The Deepeeka Papillo will be patterned on the Junkelmann/Newstead tent becasaue it must be a wedge style, and these are depicted on Trajan's column. The Vindolanda tent cannot fit onto the Roman camp as described by Hygenius as a legionary tent. It is a wall tent, and wall tents are not designed to be placed edge to edge. It is probably a junior centurion's tent, and with guylines, could fit in the allocated area. It could also very easitly be a civilian tent, used by a sutler camped on the edge of a Roman military post. This was probably very common.
The German LEG VI tents in the pic was made from hides of leather bought near where I lived. The group "centurion" is a fairly wealthy dentist and had the funds to make this gear. Also, groups in Europe are generally well paid to attend events, and can buy nice toys with all the money they make.
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Hi,
I picked this picture up off of the Late Roman Secunda forum a few weeks ago, and I never did find out its origin. Since Secunda was hacked and is not yet bck on its feet, can someone here help me????
This is the picture, captioned as 6thC:
![[Image: tent_6th_C.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/lord_mithras/tent_6th_C.jpg)
All help gratefully received!
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
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Mmm,, maybe this is the wrong thread for that particular tent query - I'll post it in History/Archaeology. Sorry folks!
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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Adam,
Yes, probably those 'sheet-tents' were carried by each individual cavalryman attached to the saddle.
Unfortunately, I haven't got reply from Carol about the Vindolanda, Newstead or Valkenburg unpublished items. That from Deurne is very poorly preserved. It was probably made of 16 goatskin panels sewn together, each one of 72x52 cm (Notwithstanding, being an old, unconserved find, you can give a strong shrinkage for sure!) Corner reinforcements were present, two of them with signs of a now lost fastening (a loop and toggle one?), perhaps for joining together several 'individual' sheets into a bigger 'tent'. Carol van Driel-Murray: 'A late Roman assemblage from Deurne (Netherlands)' in Bonner Jahrbuch 200 (2000) pp. 293-308.
Incidentally, I think that the image posted by Paul is a perfect depiction of how those individual 'tents' could look like on the field! :o
Aitor
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Aitor,
Thanks for the information! That's wonderful! However, you mentioned that they were used by the cavalry strapped behind the saddle. Is there possible usage by infantry, auxiliary, sailors, or even civilians? If not, then it is back to trying to save up money for the materials to make a regular tent.
Cheers,
Adam
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Adam,
I really don't know 8) ...
I can only say that the Deurne sheet was rolled around a nice bunch of Constantinian equipment belonging to cavalry. As I told you, I don't know anything on the contexts of the other similar items. Nothing against its possible use by infantry or civilians, then!
Aitor
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Hi
I have just bought 60 goat skins plant tanned for my first tent.
The leather is excellent. Very light and thin ... and very strong .. like nylon raincoat. I am very satisfied... but I have now a small problem. As you know goats leather is white ..
How to make it more in brown color ??
Oiling will make it darker but will not change into brown
Can anyone help me in this matter ?
I asked archeologists-friends to make wood tar for me .. but it cost fortune. About $100 per 200 ml. 
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Quote:That from Deurne is very poorly preserved. It was probably made of 16 goatskin panels sewn together, each one of 72x52 cm
Aitor
Hi Aitor, what was the dimension of the Deurne sheet overall???
Many Thanks
~ Paul Elliott
The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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