How Heavy Were Iron Age Bows?

[Sean Manning]

The heavy bow enthusiasts from 15th/ 16th century living history sometimes project their ideas on antiquity. In the first post in this series, I look at the evidence for heavy (> 100 lbs draw weight) bows in the first millennium BCE. Future posts will cover the evidence which does not fit this model.

https://www.bookandsword.com/2022/07/02/...ws-part-1/

[Hanny]

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/79170491.pdf

[Sean Manning]

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/79170491.pdf

Hi Hanny,

you are the second person to bring that up. That thesis had not been published when I wrote my posts, and it looks like it covers what I think is worth a journal article in two sentences on p. 89:

While both historical and modern bows have been made with higher draw weights, even the above mentioned 70 pound draw weight would be unusually heavy (Baker, 1992, p. 79; Spotted-Eagle, 1988, pp. 15-16). Given that a draw weight of between 45 and 55 pounds (20-25kg) is more than adequate to kill all but the very largest game, it appears that the higher draw weights seen in medieval longbow and Turkish flight bow artifacts do not represent the norm for the ancient world (Baker, 1992, pp. 78-79; Blyth, 1980, p. 34; Godehardt et al., 2007, p. 117).

Its definitely on my to-read list!

[Hanny]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5999391/

"A Greek hoplite could quite happily rely upon his bronze helmet to keep out both Persian and Scythian arrows, and on his breastplate and greaves, if he wore them. On the other hand, his armour was far from complete, and the eyes, right arm, and the neck were particularly vulnerable. His shield would provide adequate protection against arrows from the Scythian bow…, but not, at short range, against those from the Persian infantry bow."

See P. H. Blythe, The Effectiveness of Greek Armour Against Arrows in the Persian War (490-479 B. C.)

See also https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/F...edir_esc=y detailing the kenetic energy of weapons systems generated against armour/shield and if it can penetrate and the difference between iron/bronze and medieval steell and the amount of joules needed to penetrate each being different.

Also on some interest perhaps:
https://i0.wp.com/www.dupuyinstitute.org...ited02.jpg

[Sean Manning]

Hi Hanny,

yes, the next post in this series will mostly talk about Blythe, McEwan, and Godehart et al. But they did not know about the Mary Rose bows or the bows in Istanbul or the Ming and Qing dynasty archery exams (because the draw weights of those had not been published yet) and the 15th/16th century archery enthusiasts don't know about them. AFAIK, nobody before me has brought these two groups of research together and engaged with both their arguments rather than just picking one.

I recommend trusting nothing in From Sumer to Rome after the title page. It answers questions which no other book in university libraries answers, but when you look where its answers come from there are more red flags than at a Communist Party rally.

[Hanny]

From Sumer to Rome data is taken from Canadian War Colleges Lectures, for the education of Officers taking war studies and simulation conflict courses.

[Sean Manning]

From Sumer to Rome data is taken from Canadian War Colleges Lectures, for the education of Officers taking war studies and simulation conflict courses.

No, the data on the energy generated by weapons in From Sumer to Rome is taken from a SCA-grade back yard test involving the authors and one (!) unnamed test subject. Lots of people without critical thinking skills use their made-up numbers.

Soldiers are not trained in experiment design or how to evaluate historical sources. That is not their job! Unfortunately, they often get fooled by pseudoscience like the books by Killology Grossman which seems 'useful'. I think one of the authors of From Sumer to Rome teaches at a staff college so can get their made-up numbers into circulation because people trust him.

This is why in science (like my science of history) we never appeal to popularity or unjustified authority.

Edit: the description of their experiment is on page xix and its just fractally amateurish from the single subject to the insertion of a random 1/g into the formula for kinetic energy to the assumption that a weapon in hand is just like a projectile and only the mass of the weapon contributes to the energy https://books.google.ca/books?id=6sAftYT...&q&f=false In the 1970s we did not know much about how to model low-tech arms and armour but using this book today is a very bad idea!

[Hanny]

***edited***

Data from Rome to Sumer is re used in many books, William Shepherd recent works for instance.  Stephen Krentz otoh in a recent book cites research which shows that a Persian bow could generate maximum kinetic energy of 50 joules, which puts it on a par with the English longbow.  At a range of 40 metres or less this would be sufficient for an arrow to pierce a hoplite shield, which was found to require energy on impact of 25-35 joules. Different test that contradicts Gabriels data sets.

Your error (***edited***) is in not understanding that the work is a general study, not a specific ballistics study, and used data from  Orthopaedic Biomechanics, charles Thomas for force levels for example.

Other books, and there are dozens to chose from, by Gabriel are equally useful/informative, Man and Wound in the Ancient World A History of Military Medicine from Sumer to the Fall of Constantinople https://b-ok.cc/book/2517669/a63e04 and The Great Armies of Antiquity https://b-ok.cc/book/12002326/0d8a7f, yes there are examples of things that could be better, but are good enough, ***edited***.

[Sean Manning]

Young person, when you have lost an argument, and everyone knows you have lost the argument, its a good idea to drift away not start throwing insults.

[Feinman]

As a fellow old person now, I can testify that Sean is a brilliant and erudite scholar, and a highly respected academic to boot.

[Praefectusclassis]

Personal insults are not allowed on RAT. Period. Post edited and user banned for one week.

[Jack Svendsen]

Great stuff, eagerly awaiting part 2.

I have the distinct feeling that most Ancient bows were anywhere from 'middling' to 'anemic' in the general opinion of the 'Warbow-ists'. But if Joules were everything, they'd be terrified to find that Slings have them beat!

*Luis Pons Livermore was recently chronographed throwing a 200gram slingstone at 52 m/s, try to beat that result with a bow!*

[Sean Manning]

Part 2 with the most important replica bowyer the Internet has not heard of is up https://www.bookandsword.com/2022/09/17/...ws-part-2/