Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
1912 Publication of a La Tène Shield
#1
The 1912 edition of Musée Neuchâtelois has the publication of an almost complete shield from La Tène. Many later books summarize this report (or summarize summaries of it) but you can download a PDF of the original French at http://doc.rero.ch/record/12454 (pages 7-15 of the 1912 edition, there is another shield in the 1914 edition)

There is a summary of these excavations by the author of the report in Paul Vouga, La Tène, Monographie de la station publiée au nom de la commission des fouilles de La Tène, Leipzig 1923 https://www.academia.edu/66964016/Paul_V..._T%C3%A8ne

If only the Keltikos forum was still online!
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#2
The Deutsches Archäologisches Institut has kindly digitized the original publication of the (Celtic? Roman?) scutum shield from Kasr el Harit in the Fayum, Egypt (thanks Florian F.)

Kimmig, Wolfgang 1940. “Ein Keltenschild aus Ägypten.” Germania Bd. 24 Nr. 2, pp. 106-111 http://nbn-resolving.de/urn:nbn:de:bsz:16-ger-413717
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#3
As part of my series on spears and shields, I have posted about what woods were used for shields in Iron Age Europe. . Stay tuned for part 3 where I translate the original site reports on shields from La Tène by Paul Vouga!
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#4
Thanks.  Very interesting read.  I was totally unaware that liriodendron might split like that!  A cursory search of wood-database.com suggests that the widespread species of true poplar, willow, alder and linden in western Eurasia are pretty soft -- white poplar, for instance, has similar measures of hardness and strength to American basswood, which I would never have considered for a shield, but perhaps the poplar's not as easily split, or glued facings make it strong enough.
Dan D'Silva

Far beyond the rising sun
I ride the winds of fate
Prepared to go where my heart belongs,
Back to the past again.

--  Gamma Ray

Well, I'm tough, rough, ready and I'm able
To pick myself up from under this table...

--  Thin Lizzy

Join the Horde! - http://xerxesmillion.blogspot.com/
Reply
#5
Now that we know what wood for European shields should be like, I would love an experienced woodworker to see how well tulip poplar meets those requirements. Where I live local red alder (alnus rubra) is just as cheap and common as imported tulip poplar (liriodendron tulipifera) and basswood (tilia Americana) is not much more expensive, and both seem to have properties similar to the traditional European woods for shields.

Basswood seems like its somewhere between European linden and white willow / white poplar in properties. The book on mummy portraits says that linden was the most common wood for them in Roman Egypt, and Cennini also recommended linden for panel painting.

In an earlier thread called 'La Tene shield materials' you asked about a typology of bosses or spine-reinforcements for La Tène culture shields from the 5th century BCE onwards. I think I remember there was such a typology (with diagrams) in:

Jean-Louis Brunaux and André Rapin, Gournay II: Boucliers et Lances, Dépôts et Trophées (Éditions Errance: Paris, 1988)

A forthcoming book from Pen & Sword will summarize some of these French, Italian, and Spanish-language publications.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#6
Part 3 has a translation of the original description of the shields from La Tène and how the thickness varies from centre to edge I will add a picture when I have time and energy.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#7
I have continued this series with a post on what Aristotle says about the Thracian peltē shield and where he says it
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#8
I have expanded my post on wood in shields in Iron Age Europe to include more shields (including the two wooden shields from Bronze Age Ireland).  I still need to cover Hjortspring and Nydam and so on!
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#9
I have added the Hjortspring shields (cited through a secondary source), two Central European shields and two shields from Derveni near Thessaloniki to the post on wood in shields in Iron Age Europe.

I also added a re-examination of the wood in the three shields from La Tene
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#10
(06-11-2022, 08:56 PM)Sean Manning Wrote: Part 3 has a translation of the original description of the shields from La Tène and how the thickness varies from centre to edge  I will add a picture when I have time and energy.

" The shields have a short horizontal handgrip reinforced with iron instead of a long vertical handgrip like Viking shields."

In your article you mention a difference in the orientatation of the handgrip, this is not actually the case in terms of construction.
All grips to my knowledge run in the same orientation to the planks as earlier shields, and all appear to have the same inset handgrips with the exception of Gokstad, some with extentions which you might consider as a reinforcement across the plank construction.

This I believe to be true for all early medieval round shields the main difference is in the use oval/oblong vs round shields, Early Anglo Saxon, Frankish, Merovingian, Scandinavian Vendel, Valsgarde or Viking Era.

The Gokstad shields appear to have been reinforced by the museum with additional strips of wood across the planks in addition to the central original, and the suspicion is that they were purely votive hence there was no effort to inset the grips, one side of the ship had yellow the other black/blue? painted shields... Night and day Crew?
I made several of these shields and they don't handle well because of the raised grip, an inset grip is better balanced.

Gokstad with edging and a cover added likely better then the original, made from commercially available spruce.

           

Even the Roman scutum from Dura is in the same orientation, if you consider the center layer of the three ply construction as this runs vertical to the horizontal grip.

There is the Doncaster shield but think the interpretation of the remains may be at fault, as my thoughts are its a large round shield similar to the illerup finds, though I'd have to look closer at it.
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Reply
#11
(06-20-2023, 07:33 AM)Crispianus Wrote:
(06-11-2022, 08:56 PM)Sean Manning Wrote: Part 3 has a translation of the original description of the shields from La Tène and how the thickness varies from centre to edge  I will add a picture when I have time and energy.

" The shields have a short horizontal handgrip reinforced with iron instead of a long vertical handgrip like Viking shields."

In your article you mention a difference in the orientatation of the handgrip, this is not actually the case in terms of construction.

All grips to my knowledge run in the same orientation to the planks as earlier shields, and all appear to have the same inset handgrips with the exception of Gokstad, some with extentions which you might consider as a reinforcement across the plank construction.

This I believe to be true for all early medieval round shields the main difference is in the use oval/oblong vs round shields, Early Anglo Saxon, Frankish, Merovingian, Scandinavian Vendel, Valsgarde or Viking Era.
Humh, I don't have time for a full reply this week but offhand I agree that the grip runs at right angles to the planks (or the center layer of planks) in both the Kasr el Harit shield and the La Tene and Migration Era shields. Round shields don't really have a natural orientation.

Specialists in Viking Age shields such as Roland Warzecha still show handles that span the whole width of the shield. They could be wrong but I'd want it from someone who has studied the finds and published not an anonymous Internet poster. Everyone has their limits and I just don't have bandwidth or the budget to look at the archaeology of the Viking Age in detail.

Two posts on Viking Age shield handles:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/was-hedeby-grip-35302300
https://www.patreon.com/posts/historical-17826635

Warming on the Gokstad shields https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10....23.2187199

I have not heard of iron reinforcements for the middle of the handle on Viking Age round shields like on Migration Era round shields. That suggests to me that the wooden part of the handle was stronger and better fastened to the planks of the shield than in the earlier shields.

I don't have either edition of Schmidt's book on bucklers but my understanding is that surviving medieval round bucklers usually have a handle the full width of the shield or pretty close.

What do Travis and Travis think about the Doncaster shield in their books? I would be surprised at a large round centergrip shield of plywood in the first century CE. The big northern round shields seem to have spread with the practice of making shields from one layer of long narrow boards.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#12
Rolf Warming has a post on the handle of the Viking shield from Trelleborg:

Quote:The shield handle of the Viking Age shield excavated at Trelleborg (Denmark) has been a subject of much debate, partly because of general rarity of extant Viking Age shield handles and the surprising length of the handle. In this post, I offer a few clarifications and a summary of what is known about the handle thus far based on previous publications (Dobat 2013) as well as personal observations. ...

The handle measures 2.1 cm in width and c. 35 cm in length. Compared to other lines of evidence, the handle seems surprisingly short. Iconography, metal shield handle fittings as well as rare parallel finds where the wooden shield handle has been preserved – such as the shield finds from Gokstad (Norway) and Tira (Latvia) – indicate that handles were typically much longer in the Viking Age, spanning across most of the shield’s diameter. Shorter handles, however, seem to have been more common in preceding periods. The unusual length and the partly fragmented condition of the handle have led many to believe that the handle was originally longer, following the general trend outlined above. A longer handle would certainly have provided the shield with more structural strength.

Nonetheless, the original length of the wooden handle was in all probability not much greater than that given by its current condition. ...

As I said, my knowledge of Viking Age shields comes from photos and research ranging from children's books to Rolf Warming's article in Arms and Armour, I try not to disagree with experts unless I know the experts disagree (eg. about whether Carolingian shields were flat like surviving shields from the Baltic and Viking Britain or domed like in the paintings and sculptures). It seems like there is some dispute whether the Viking Age handles were half as wide as the shield (39 cm at Trelleborg, 49 cm at Gokstad), or fully as wide as the shields but that is still much longer than the 10-15 cm long handles in earlier periods!
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#13
Hi Crispianus, so this forum was down for some days in late June. I am trying to sum up.

Could you point me to some publications of shields from the Viking Era which seem to have short handles level with the back of the board like the Dura Europos round shields not long handles that stick out of the back of the board like a typical modern 'Viking Shield'? A broad work like Dickinson and Härke's Early Anglo-Saxon Shields or Stephenson's Anglo-Saxon Shield would be even better.

Its always possible that someone has stared at a shield in a vitrine and seen something that the archaeologists did not see, but because the first millennium CE is not one of my research interests, I'd rather lean on the kind of considered thought that it takes to write a book or an article.

I hope to finish my 24" Early Anglo Saxon shield this year.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply
#14
(07-01-2023, 05:11 AM)Sean Manning Wrote: Hi Crispianus, so this forum was down for some days in late June.  I am trying to sum up.

Could you point me to some publications of shields from the Viking Era which seem to have short handles level with the back of the board like the Dura Europos round shields not long handles that stick out of the back of the board like a typical modern 'Viking Shield'?  A broad work like Dickinson and Härke's Early Anglo-Saxon Shields or Stephenson's Anglo-Saxon Shield would be even better.

Its always possible that someone has stared at a shield in a vitrine and seen something that the archaeologists did not see, but because the first millennium CE is not one of my research interests, I'd rather lean on the kind of considered thought that it takes to write a book or an article.

I hope to finish my 24" Early Anglo Saxon shield this year.

Sorry for the delay real world intervened, apart from the fact I seem to have lost my source material...

" Shield mounts consisting of a trefoil-shaped cast copper-alloy mount and two fragments of an iron
band for the hand-grip were located in the western part of the Hedeby boat chamber grave (MüllerWille 1976a:76ff, Abb. 44.4-6). 
It is not possible to determine to which of the two shield-bosses the mounts belong. The iron band had a D-shaped cross section, and remains of wood were preserved on the concave inner side, the outer side showing faint
traces of silver plating. The trefoil-shaped mount was originally fitted at the end of the hand-grip.

It is similar to mounts known from seven Birka graves, four of which contained a shield-boss of type
R.564, and one a type R.563.23
 
At Rends seven fragments of a decorated copper-alloy band for a handgrip were recovered together with a shield-boss of type R.562 (pl. 44.3). The total estimated length is about 70 cm, indicating the minimum diameter of the shield. 
The fragments were at first believed to be mounts for a spear shaft, but their similarity to mounts from Birka grave 736 (fig. 4.10.1) confirm an association with the shield (Brøndsted 1936:122; Arwidsson 1986:43). 

The Gokstad ship burial in Norway contains another, almost identical fragment decorated with gilt copper alloy (fig. 4.10.3), originally described as ‘an ornamental piece of iron, its intended purpose unknown’ (Nicolaysen 1882:49). "


From : Dead Warriors in Living Memory. A study of weapon and equestrian burials in Viking-age Denmark, AD 800-1000. 2014 Anne Pedersen.

Volume 1

Volume 2

Added direct links and images, see Shields in VolI and Plate 44 Vol II, fortunatly Laptop issues resolved!

   
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
Reply
#15
Hi Crispianus,

thanks for getting back to this thread. Sometime in the next two weeks I will try to get back with sketches of the two types of grip as I understand them. I think that would be easier than words.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  La Tene shield materials? Dan D'Silva 20 8,647 02-07-2023, 02:20 AM
Last Post: Crispianus

Forum Jump: