Questions about assembling a hoplite panoply

[Andrew Yamato]

Hello,

My friend and I are experienced NYC-based military reenactors looking to assemble quality hoplite impressions, and I’d very much appreciate hearing this group’s thoughts on the various elements of our panoplies we’ve identified to purchase.


My first general question is whether brass is an acceptable alternative to bronze in helmets and armor. Much of the [phosphor?] bronze I’ve seen in reproductions has a distinct reddish tint which, while attractive, doesn’t necessarily resemble the more golden color of original artifacts (or other modern instances of bronze, like cymbals). I certainly prefer the idea of wearing bronze rather than brass, but I wonder if patinaed brass actually better approximates the look of ancient bronze? There is also the matter of having all the metal elements of an impression “match” (not for aesthetics, but to simulate consistent metallurgy), and since certain elements (e.g. aspis rims) are only available in brass, I wonder if that isn’t the best option.     



Helmets. Whatever the metal, we have decided upon DSC’s Corinthian “A” helmets as the most authentic-looking mass-produced Corinthian helmets. I know they make two shapes (A and B) in two sizes each -- how have you all found these to look/fit in person? I have a large head, but have found most replica helmets to be far too big considering how closely originals must’ve fit. 



Greaves. These are perhaps the most difficult items to source. How have people found DSC’s custom greaves? Deepeka’s? Other sellers? Has anyone had success with improving upon the shape/fit themselves? My friends and I are both in good shape and don’t require the rather wide fit that a lot of repros seem to have. We’re prepared to spend 800€ for custom bronze greaves from Maziar’s Workshop in Poland, but first want to see what the consensus is about the much cheaper DSC greaves. 



DSC appears to offer a cross-laminated and authentically lightweight aspis that looks great and is well priced. I would someday like to try my hand at making a plank version like Matt Amt’s, but in the meantime this seems like a perfectly good option with an authentic construction. Anyone disagree?      



Cuirass. Does anyone recommend a particular maker for either a bell or muscle cuirass that would fit a 6’1”, 195 man with a 42 chest? I plan to make my own linen or leather spolas as well, but I do see very reasonably priced cuirasses from online sellers who advertise that they’ll make the armor to your measurements. They all use the same photos, which doesn’t give me much confidence, but they have high seller ratings and promise free returns, so part of me wonders if they’re worth giving a shot. I’m specifically looking at the cuirass and greaves in the attached photo, which both look quite good to my eye...


Thanks very much to anyone who takes the time to read this and offer their thoughts and experience!


Andrew

[Athena Areias]

First off, wander over to Matt Amt's Greek Hoplite website. Lots of good reviews and recommendations there. Also tutorials.

I sourced jeweler's "nu-gold" brass for my shield rim and greaves. It looks closer to bronze. Most re-enactors don't let their equipment get a patina - it's all about being shiny and scary! Don't trust ANY site that uses "stock" photos as examples. The photos are lifted from Matt's website, usually. Look through any photos you see here under the Greek pages. Perhaps a private message to the posters will get you good info to move forward. Do your research before you part with your money. You don't have to be a rich Athenian wrapped in bronze right away...

[Dan Howard]

When we were looking for tin-bronze for my Agamemnon cuirass we discovered that there was nowhere on the American continent that supplied a plate large enough. I had to settle for "commercial bronze" (low-zinc brass) because phosphor bronze and silicon bronze are the wrong colour.

[Sean Manning]

I certainly prefer the idea of wearing bronze rather than brass, but I wonder if patinaed brass actually better approximates the look of ancient bronze?

For everyone in the ancient world who had a bronze helmet, there were many with a bronze mirror.  Text after text mentions warriors in shining bronze, protective coverings for kit, and making everything beautiful before you used it.  So the appropriate finishes for ancient bronze armour are polished, tinned, gilt, and maybe painted.  This thread has some citations.

[Andrew Yamato]

First off, wander over to Matt Amt's Greek Hoplite website.  Lots of good reviews and recommendations there.  Also tutorials.

I sourced jeweler's "nu-gold" brass for my shield rim and greaves.  It looks closer to bronze.  Most re-enactors don't let their equipment get a patina - it's all about being shiny and scary! Don't trust ANY site that uses "stock" photos as examples.  The photos are lifted from Matt's website, usually.  Look through any photos you see here under the Greek pages.  Perhaps a private message to the posters will get you good info to move forward.  Do your research before you part with your money.  You don't have to be a rich Athenian wrapped in bronze right away...

Thanks, Cheryl! I've been following Matt's website for over as decade -- just finally decided to take the plunge on assembling a kit. Great tip about the Nu-Gold.

Andrew

---

When we were looking for tin-bronze for my Agamemnon cuirass we discovered that there was nowhere on the American continent that supplied a plate large enough. I had to settle for "commercial bronze" (low-zinc brass) because phosphor bronze and silicon bronze are the wrong colour.

Nothing about your Agamemnon cuirass looks like you settled! ;-)

[PygmyHippo]

Hello!

All the greaves I've seen that are not custom-made seem to be enormous. I'm 6' and 177 lbs, so I can identify with your plight when it comes to off-the-shelf gear. It's just way oversized.

So many depictions of hoplites on pottery show them without greaves that I feel going without is certainly not wrong. The only consistent item seems to be a helmet, shield and usually a spear. Clothing optional. I just completed a shield apron which I made in part to get around the immediate need for greaves. Might be better to skip buying anything mass-produced, and instead save up for something custom made, or maybe try your hand at making them? I followed Matt's guide on building an aspis and it was far less daunting than I feared.

One bit of info that was especially useful for me was where to find affordable ash poles to construct a dory. I got mine from https://www.bairdbrothers.com/Ash-1-Dowe...P4258.aspx It was much cheaper than any reenacting website (if you're in Canada or the U.S.), they were shipped very quickly, and the poles were completely warp-free. My spearpoint and sauroter were from KultofAthena.com. Assembling them on the ash pole was a breeze. Like Cheryl said, I used the recommendations Matt made on his site.

The item I think is worth splurging upon is footwear. Finding the correct design of Greek sandals was a challenge, particularly finding one's that are quality.

Marcus

[Athena Areias]

For footwear, I ended up making my own. Matt has good pics and instructions, also search here for older threads. I found a way to make some patterns here. I had lots of leather leftovers after lining my shield (obsolete info) and making a spolas. I stuck some inserts into my Greek open-toed boots for support. I'm good to go...

[Dan Howard]

The last spear I made was from a sapling that I cut down and left to season for a couple of months. The only tools I needed for the shaft were a machete and sandpaper so it needn't be a complicated project. The problem with commercially-bought poles is that they are dowels cut from much larger trees. You lose a lot of strength and flexibility because the section only includes a small portion of the tree-rings. For a good weapon shaft, you need the heartwood and sapwood intact which can only be achieved by using saplings and coppiced branches. The other problem is that they often come from commercial plantations that force the trees to grow as quickly as possible, which also compromises the strength of the timber. Just selecting the correct type of wood is not enough. The best spear shafts come from saplings and coppiced branches taken from slow-growing trees. We can get the wrong impression about the true strength of their spear shafts if we don't use the same materials that they used.

[Andrew Yamato]

Hello!

All the greaves I've seen that are not custom-made seem to be enormous. I'm 6' and 177 lbs, so I can identify with your plight when it comes to off-the-shelf gear. It's just way oversized.

So many depictions of hoplites on pottery show them without greaves that I feel going without is certainly not wrong. The only consistent item seems to be a helmet, shield and usually a spear. Clothing optional. I just completed a shield apron which I made in part to get around the immediate need for greaves. Might be better to skip buying anything mass-produced, and instead save up for something custom made, or maybe try your hand at making them? I followed Matt's guide on building an aspis and it was far less daunting than I feared.

One bit of info that was especially useful for me was where to find affordable ash poles to construct a dory. I got mine from https://www.bairdbrothers.com/Ash-1-Dowe...P4258.aspx It was much cheaper than any reenacting website (if you're in Canada or the U.S.), they were shipped very quickly, and the poles were completely warp-free. My spearpoint and sauroter were from KultofAthena.com. Assembling them on the ash pole was a breeze. Like Cheryl said, I used the recommendations Matt made on his site.

The item I think is worth splurging upon is footwear. Finding the correct design of Greek sandals was a challenge, particularly finding one's that are quality.

M

I've decided to skim my daughter's inheritance for a pair of custom greaves from Maziar's Workshop.

Great tip about Baird Brothers--thank you! 

What do we think about DSC's greek sandals? Construction/quality wise, they look very analogous to vegetable-tanned caligae I've made myself...

[Andrew Yamato]

The last spear I made was from a sapling that I cut down and left to season for a couple of months. The only tools I needed for the shaft were a machete and sandpaper so it needn't be a complicated project. The problem with commercially-bought poles is that they are dowels cut from much larger trees. You lose a lot of strength and flexibility because the section only includes a small portion of the tree-rings. For a good weapon shaft, you need the heartwood and sapwood intact which can only be achieved by using saplings and coppiced branches. The other problem is that they often come from commercial plantations that force the trees to grow as quickly as possible, which also compromises the strength of the timber. Just selecting the correct type of wood is not enough. The best spear shafts come from saplings and coppiced branches taken from slow-growing trees. We can get the wrong impression about the true strength of their spear shafts if we don't use the same materials that they used.

Interesting, and very impressive! Using a full sapling would also give you a naturally tapered shaft, the lack of which is another strike against commercial dowel.

[rggomm]

"What do we think about DSC's greek sandals? Construction/quality wise, they look very analogous to vegetable-tanned caligae I've made myself..."

Hi Andrew.  I have the DSC sandals, and they look fairly similar to his with a few visible differences. The leather probably needs to be dyed and treated. I haven't had much of a chance to break mine in yet, but they seem well made.  I also think these look nice, but I don't know anything about them or the maker https://alhamdd.com/portfolio/greek-sandals-i/.  Does anyone know much about these?

[Andrew Yamato]

"What do we think about DSC's greek sandals? Construction/quality wise, they look very analogous to vegetable-tanned caligae I've made myself..."

Hi Andrew.  I have the DSC sandals, and they look fairly similar to his with a few visible differences. The leather probably needs to be dyed and treated. I haven't had much of a chance to break mine in yet, but they seem well made.  I also think these look nice, but I don't know anything about them or the maker https://alhamdd.com/portfolio/greek-sandals-i/.  Does anyone know much about these?

Thanks! Our DSC sandals should be coming with our helmets and aspides soon.

[Zephyrides]

For footwear, I ended up making my own.  Matt has good pics and instructions, also search here for older threads.  I found a way to make some patterns here.  I had lots of leather leftovers after lining my shield (obsolete info) and making a spolas.  I stuck some inserts into my Greek open-toed boots for support.  I'm good to go...

Hey Cheryl, when you say obsolete info, do you mean that the Greeks did not line their shields with leather? Front or back? 
Also, I had the pleasure of meeting you and seeing all your kit at a military through the ages event in Jamestown a few years ago! Incredible work, and seeing it all served as the impetus I needed to finally get to work on my own!

[Athena Areias]

"Obsolete" in weights of shields, mostly. Mine is too heavy by about five pounds. It shows by the end of the day at an event. It is turned. Had the research with more accurate weights been available to me then, I would have pressed the wood turner to keep going for just a little bit more...