Neo-Babylonian Chaldean Levies

[John Robertson]

Hey folks,
I hope this topic is not too "early". I've recently been very curious to find out where Nigel Stillman and Tallis in their Armies of the Ancient Near East got their references for the Chaldean levy troops, figure 160, the archer (a) is fine but the shield types, in  particular the b a bossed "violin" type, I've been very keen to see the actual source that they draw from. Any thoughts/pics would be greatly appreciated, cheers

[Sean Manning]

John, I do not have that book, but I do not know any depictions of soldiers with shields from late Babylonia: we have the Neo-Assyrian reliefs (some of which show soldiers from Babylonia and Elam), we have the Achaemenid palace sculptures with guards and visitors carrying shields, and we have lists of equipment for soldiers.

[John Robertson]

John, I do not have that book, but I do not know any depictions of soldiers with shields from late Babylonia: we have the Neo-Assyrian reliefs (some of which show soldiers from Babylonia and Elam), we have the Achaemenid palace sculptures with guards and visitors carrying shields, and we have lists of equipment for soldiers.

Hi Sean,
Many thanks for the reply.
Very interesting stuff, particulary the fact that troops were issued with different types of bows within the unit. The equipment lists too are a useful resource. "Ponchos" on some Babylonian troops would look good, also the caps with ear flaps as opposed the the long "tailed" cap as per Persian monuments. Interesting to see as well that each group of ten men get's a mule, similar to Phillip the 2nd's army.
I have spoken to Duncan too with regards the violin" shield, he too says that he's not aware of any reference for this, so I'll try Nigel Tallis to see where he's coming from on it.
I have attached the images I refer to, foolish not to do that in the first place The WRG book is from 1984 and it's remarkably exntensive and it's the go-to book for wargamers of the period. I have seen many figures based on these reconstructions.

I am in fact a scultpor, although I do a lot of sci-fi/fantasy subjects my real interest is in Archaic/Classical/Hellensitic history. I had started off creating the Xyston range in 2001, but lately I have found 28mm stuff more challenging and rewarding, so my plan is to start my own range of 28s next year, intially focusing on the Persian army of Xerxes but then working "backwards" to include Lydians, Carians, Phrygians, Neo-Babylonians, Cimmerians etc and of course some early Greek types too
As a consequence the whole Persian army shield debate is of great interest; armaments of apple bearers, immortals and sparbara and does the "violin" shield play a part in the field armies. Further use of "Persian" robes, fluted cap, and the "domed" hat of the "Medes" if they are in fact Medes.
Too much perhaps for one thread
BTW I find your work facinating! 
All the very best
John

[Sean Manning]

You are welcome John!  You might enjoy this image from my forthcoming book (there are only two images, two diagrams, and three maps I am afraid- I can't spare the time or the brain-space or the money for more!)



Which of these three types did Herodotus envision his Persians using?  And are the catalogue of nations and the battle scenes describing the same shield, since the sources are probably completely different? Because the big rectangular shields which some people like only show up on one or two buildings at Persepolis and ?three? pots from Athens (Anne Bovon's article still seems to have all the known Red Figure pictures of these ...)

[John Robertson]

Hey Sean,
Thanks for that fella.
I think the "evidence" is sparse, no matter where you look, and it will come down to judgement in the end. I think on balance the Perisan's used the large spara shield on the whole: it fits well with the narratives in Herodotus, I found Paul Bardunias and Fred Eugene's descritpions of the Spara "wall" in "Hoplites at War" for Thermopylae and Mycale very convincing. Further these Spara feature in Greek art and they also do feature at Persepolis, however few. It also fits in well with the development of spearman carrying large body shields in the 7th century started by the Egyptians and quickley taken up by the Assryians.
The other "candidates" do not feature in all three aspects.
The violin shield features in the Persian reliefs, but isn't shown in Greek art of the period, and I'm sure Paul mentioned that someone had tried to recontruct a "shieldwall" with these without success in a Youtube video, so not sure it "fits" the narratives. There does, however, appear to be a boss from Samos, Sekunda and Head, from the violin shield type. My take would be that it was used but perhaps only for guards units, maybe the Apple-Bearers. I think if it was in general use it's distinctive features may have been mentioned.
The crescent pelete doesn't feature on Persians until mid 5th century, and as Sekunda and Head have suggested, that perhaps the use was in reponse to the move away from the sparabara to hoplites within the armies.
There is of course the small circular shield, it is mentioned in the narrartives though not in relation to the Persians, and also features on a couple of Persian reliefs at Persepolis, delegation 21 and 14 as per Head. And there is a convex wicker shield of the  Skudra too.
I am more than happy to be convinced otherwise
Now that you've teased me, what's the book about?
All the best

[Sean Manning]

Hi John,

it is a revised version of the PhD thesis with more cool archaeology and texts, maps of all the sites I talk about, translations of all the French and German I quote, and a lot of small fixes to the body text and footnotes and bibliography. I hope one day I can do something better illustrated, because Duncan Head's book is so hard to obtain these days! But I would need a job that let me wander around museum back rooms and archaeological sites in different countries, and probably money to hire an artist.

I wanted to include the shield picture because many of the readers won't be arms and armour people.

[John Robertson]

Hi John,

  it is a revised version of the PhD thesis with more cool archaeology and texts, maps of all the sites I talk about, translations of all the French and German I quote, and a lot of small fixes to the body text and footnotes and bibliography.  I hope one day I can do something better illustrated, because Duncan Head's book is so hard to obtain these days!  But I would need a job that let me wander around museum back rooms and archaeological sites in different countries, and probably money to hire an artist.

  I wanted to include the shield picture because many of the readers won't be arms and armour people.

I look forward to it!
As for Duncan's book, it's odd as I picked up a second copy late last year, mint condition, for only £10 GBP, but having a quick look now on Abebooks nd Amzon, blimey!
If you need any scans just ask,
cheers

---

I forgot to say it looks like Tallis took the shield designs from Hittite shields on Egyptian reliefs as well as the shield moulds found there too. I also saw there's a Luristan bronze shield, about 1000BC, in a violin shape too, but only 46cm across.

[Crispianus]

Duncan Heads book "The Armies of the Macedonian and Punic wars" in a revised 2016 edition is available from WRG on Lulu, in both soft and hardback versions.
As well as the earlier version of the above book "Armies of the Ancient Near East" can be found on scribd as a pdf, I assume its a legal copy.

Keep Wargaming (whom I would recommend) used to be the official seller of WRG books and they still sell some old and out of print titles, I bought both my H/B copies from them some years ago.

For the uninitiated WRG is Wargames Research Group

[John Robertson]

Duncan Heads book "The Armies of the Macedonian and Punic wars" in a revised 2016 edition is available from WRG on Lulu, in both soft and hardback versions.
As well as the earlier version of the above book "Armies of the Ancient Near East" can be found on scribd as a pdf, I assume its a legal copy.

Keep Wargaming (whom I would recommend) used to be the official seller of WRG books and they still sell some old and out of print titles, I bought both my H/B copies from them some years ago.

For the uninitiated WRG is Wargames Research Group

Hello Ivor,
I think we're talking about The Achaemenid Persian Army by Montvert. I'm a long time fan though of WRG and have all their books, the two books you mention though are most excellent   all the best

[Crispianus]

Ahh I see... yes silly prices abound for that one

[Sean Manning]

Yes, Duncan Head's "The Achaemenid Persian Army' (Montvert 1992) is the best book on its subject and out of print. his volume for WRG "Armies of the Macedonian and Persian Wars" has a great bibliography, but not the illustrations of artefacts, and all the beautiful drawings are not sourced. So if you want to make your own mistakes interpreting the artwork and the archaeological finds, not copy someone else's mistakes (Persian trousers 'breaking' over the top of the shoes ...), "Armies of the Macedonian and Persian Wars" is not so helpful.

A funny thing is that the WRG books never really got to Canadian libraries, I first saw AMPW when they reprinted it with the new forward and bibliography. And some histories of research write them out of existence, even though in the 1980s and 1990s most book-length works on ancient warfare in English was written by or for gamers.

I wanted to include some illustrations of spear length to help people understand what a spear 40% longer than the bearer looks like, but I just could not find some artwork which would look clear in B&W without more editing or redrawing than I have time and skills for.

Ivor, quite often things on Wikimedia Commons or Scribd do not belong to the person who posted them, even if they have a beautiful Creative Commons label.

[John Robertson]

Looking forward to your offering Sean, cheers