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Hello Everyone:
i live in Cymru/Wales. I am researching the Gododdin poem which was probably first sung about 1400 years ago in Duneidyn/Edinburgh in the territory of the 'Wotadini' as recorded by Ptolemy in 4th century. It is speculated that the Wotadini tribe/nation who spoke an ancient sort of Welsh, were allies of the romans and helped keep the Picts out of Britain south of the northumbrian wall.
Fighters of the Wotadini/Votadini/Gododdin (linguistically there is a link!) left Dineidyn and nearly all died in a fierce battle in what is now northern england. The poem is a series of elegies for the fallen.
In order to visually highlight the poem, i am very interested in finding out a historically correct shape of the swords used by the Britons after the legions left Britain ca AD410.
I cannot find anything on the internet, but admit to being inept at this. Does any of you have information, or are aware of old sub-roman /celtic-type swords being unearthed during archaeological work for the period ca AD600?
Sorry, i don't speak Latin
lari parc
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(11-26-2019, 05:16 PM)lparc Wrote: historically correct shape of the swords used by the Britons after the legions left Britain ca AD410.
As far as I know, there are no sword finds from that far north in Britain from this period, but most would probably fit the general 'migration era' pattern of spatha (long sword), used by the Romans and the various barbarian 'Germanic' peoples alike.
The best option would probably be something like the 'Feltwell spatha', found at a villa site in Britain and dated to the 5th (?) century. There's a similar sword from Cumberland too. Otherwise various swords generally referred to as 'Osterburken-Kemathen' type would fit the period. There are others on here more adept at sword nomenclature that might be able to advise better.
This thread on the Feltwell Spatha has some images, and this thread on 4th/5th century swords features some nice reproductions. The replica sword by Paul Binns that he calls 'Spatha 5th/6th century' ( on this page, halfway down) would probably fit as well.
Nathan Ross
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Hello Nathan Ross: thanks for your reply: it would seem the swords used at this time were 'tightly recycled'. Thanks for the links to the various sword types.
My botany tells me that 'angusti' means narrow, and my welsh tells me that 'clavius' (cleddyf to us) is sword.
lari parc
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(12-19-2019, 11:16 AM)lparc Wrote: My botany tells me that 'angusti' means narrow, and my welsh tells me that 'clavius' (cleddyf to us) is sword.
Not being a botanist or a Welsman, would it not be more logical that 'gladius' (sword) led to 'cleddyf'?
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Robert Vermaat: thanks for that: so that is the root of cleddyf- still learning about swords . . . Gladius - gladiator, gladiolus - a plant with long sword-like leaves.
I looked at the links posted on the previous message. It amazes me that their is so much knowledge about sword types in mainland europe, and relatively little in the island of Britain: a symptom of antipathy to all things 'european' perhaps?
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(12-19-2019, 11:16 AM)lparc Wrote: My botany tells me that 'angusti' means narrow, and my welsh tells me that 'clavius' (cleddyf to us) is sword.
Angusti is narrow, but clavius is a stripe - the 'equestrian' tribune wore a narrow purple stripe on his tunic, hence the name (and the grade in the forum rank system!)
You're close, though - cleddyf probably does come from 'gladius', which the generic Latin name for a sword.
Nathan Ross
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12-20-2019, 11:21 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-22-2019, 01:09 AM by Crispianus.)
Although this is a bit later the only thing I can add to Nathon's post is this:
from: " Kings and Warriors, Craftsmen and Priests in northern britain 550-850" by L.Alcock 2003.(click on link for free PDF of the book from ADS, but you need to agree to the terms first)
" Among the Celtic peoples of northern Britain, the only material evidence for swords is
from Dunadd: two* fragments of blades, which taper towards rather blunt tips: one also
has a pronounced mid-rib (Craw 1930, 118; Duncan 1980, fig 7). In this it resembles
some possibly contemporary swords from the Irish crannogs at Lagore and Ballinderry
2 (illustrations and reff: Alcock 1971; 1989**). Given the Irish roots of the Scotti such
comparisons are to be expected."
*The second looks to be part of a lenticular section " Spatha" type blade, ie no fuller...
**Refers to: "Arthur's Britain: History And Archaeology a.d. 367-634", By Leslie Alcock (read this decades ago)
Not sure how usefull you might find this though....
Just putting these here in case, two books I've found usefull in the past dealing with Archaelogy in Ireland:
"The Archaeology of Early Medieval Ireland 400-1200" by Nancy Edwards (Bangor University) who I believe is a specialist in Welsh Archaeology!, so may be worthwhile contacting.
And an overview of Irish Archaeology some of which could be relevant, but will at least supply a usefull bibliography:
Early Medieval Ireland Excavations 1930-2004 free pdf.
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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(12-20-2019, 10:26 AM)lparc Wrote: Robert Vermaat: thanks for that: so that is the root of cleddyf- still learning about swords . . . Gladius - gladiator, gladiolus - a plant with long sword-like leaves.
I looked at the links posted on the previous message. It amazes me that their is so much knowledge about sword types in mainland europe, and relatively little in the island of Britain: a symptom of antipathy to all things 'european' perhaps?
Sword-like leaves... maybe. Gladius mean penis as well as aword. The name for the sheath was vagina.
Antipathy? No reason why that would be the case. Simply a matter of far less finds in Britain.
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12-20-2019, 11:42 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-21-2019, 09:28 PM by Crispianus.
Edit Reason: Anglo Saxons duhhh
)
(12-20-2019, 10:26 AM)lparc Wrote: I looked at the links posted on the previous message. It amazes me that their is so much knowledge about sword types in mainland europe, and relatively little in the island of Britain: a symptom of antipathy to all things 'european' perhaps?
Different Burial practices and ritual depostion account for at least some of the disparity, the picture changes once the Angles, Saxons and Jutes etc get established, then you'll find a veritable arsenal of weapons.....
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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One last thing in regards to the possible ribbed sword fragment from Dunadd:
"one also has a pronounced mid-rib (Craw 1930, 118; Duncan 1980, fig 7). In this it resembles
some possibly contemporary swords from the Irish crannogs at Lagore and Ballinderry
2 (illustrations and reff: Alcock 1971; 1989)."
There are a number of Nydam 1 (long leaf shaped, broad, ribbed) Germanic spearheads found from contexts prior to the settlement of the Anglo-Saxons and Jutes in Britain, so this is likely the reason its only a possible sword as there is this other option, I would guess....
Reference: " The Spearheads of the Anglo-Saxon Settlements" M.J.Swanton. 1973. (ABE link)
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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Ivor - diolch yn fawr (thanks very much) for the references and discussion. Am downloading the Alcock PDF now
lparc
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