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Eagle Standards
#1
Salvete Omnes,

Unless I'm wrong (?) no Legion's Eagle Standard has ever been found. In the light of this, what are your opinions on how they were made and what were they made of? Most of the ones it appears today for reenactment, etc. are made of metal or resin and are in gold. But what were they originally made of? I've read where they were probably made of wood and leafed in silver and not gold. This would also attribute to why possibly none of them have survived or ever been found. Also, being made of wood would have made them a lot lighter to carry on long marches and into battle. As for what they looked like we can see some of them in reliefs on monuments, etc.. I know the Eagle was a prized possession of a legion. As you all know the romans even went to great lengths to recover a lost Eagle. They eventually recovered the Eagles of the 3 legions in the Teutoburg Forest - Varus disaster. Therefore I ask for your thoughts and opinions.

Vale,
Thomas
Thomas Guenther
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#2
If they were indeed, however, made of gold - let alone being, as you say, highly prized (by anyone); then I would be surprised if any were lost, or merely thrown away - which describes the vast majority of actual finds!

That said, therefore, they were in at least someone's possssion - and thus most probably just simply melted down (not unlike the majority of the Inca/Maya objects that the Spanish looted). It may be sad, but entirely likely.
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#3
(06-23-2019, 07:51 PM)Purplest Wrote: Salvete Omnes,

Unless I'm wrong (?) no Legion's Eagle Standard has ever been found. In the light of this, what are your opinions on how they were made and what were they made of? Most of the ones it appears today for reenactment, etc. are made of metal or resin and are in gold. But what were they originally made of? I've read where they were probably made of wood and leafed in silver and not gold. This would also attribute to why possibly none of them have survived or ever been found. Also, being made of wood would have made them a lot lighter to carry on long marches and into battle. As for what they looked like we can see some of them in reliefs on monuments, etc.. I know the Eagle was a prized possession of a legion. As you all know the romans even went to great lengths to recover a lost Eagle. They eventually recovered the Eagles of the 3 legions in the Teutoburg Forest - Varus disaster. Therefore I ask for your thoughts and opinions.

Vale,
Thomas

There a number of ways you could create such a thing:

Solid cast metal, in silver, bronze (gilded if you want a gold finish) or gold = heavy, silver would be expensive, gold very expensive.

Hollowcast most likely in my opinion of the cast options, lighter and much cheaper on metal, can be made from several castings joined together. Many cast items over 6 inches (15cm) in size are cast using this method in the Roman world.

Sheet metal bronze, silver (gilded for a gold finish) or gold, perhaps with some cast components, much lighter may have a core of wood or some other material.

Suitable wood silvered or gilded with leaf, the lightest version but not very resistant to cosmetic damage though this would likely be a fairly easy repair.

In all the above the eagle would look like it was made from gold even if it wasn't and only gilded wood.

A Gilded wooden eagle would not be so difficult to do I think and likely the easiest option.

supplys: https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/de/blatt...rprodukte/
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#4
Your information is great food for thought! A lot on how they were possibly constructed or if someone wanted to make their own. But, it's still too bad that none of them have ever been found. So in the light of this we still don't know how they were made, what they were made of or if they were silver or gold...

Cheers,Thomas
Thomas Guenther
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#5
(06-26-2019, 01:19 PM)Purplest Wrote: Your information is great food for thought! A lot on how they were possibly constructed or if someone wanted to make their own. But, it's still too bad that none of them have ever been found. So in the light of this we still don't know how they were made, what they were made of or if they were silver or gold...

Cheers,Thomas

It depends on what your after its easy enough to find ancient items made using any or all of these methods, finding a single example of an eagle made in a particular way wouldn't rule out the other methods since their all feasible, though my personal favorites would be the hollowcast or sheet metal versions rather then the solid metal or wood.

The only Treatises I have on this kind of work are:

"The Treatises of Benvenuto Cellini on Goldsmithing and Sculpture" Dover press

and

"On Diverse Arts" by Theophilus Dover press

Both of which are quite interesting books though much later...
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#6
So from what you're saying, its possible that one legion's eagle could be different from another legion's eagle. In style, the way it was constructed and possibly even that it could've been in silver or gold. I tend to agree with you in that it was probably hollowcast or sheet metal as it would have been light enought to carry and handle, and being metal would've been more durable than wood. The solid metal would've been too heavy I think. I also believe it's possible that no two were alike. I think depending on where a legion was stationed, and who was constructing it, they would've maybe put their own style on it or have been influenced by things in their region. 

Cheers,
Thomas
Thomas Guenther
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#7
(06-26-2019, 08:38 PM)Purplest Wrote: So from what you're saying, its possible that one legion's eagle could be different from another legion's eagle. In style, the way it was constructed and possibly even that it could've been in silver or gold. I tend to agree with you in that it was probably hollowcast or sheet metal as it would have been light enought to carry and handle, and being metal would've been more durable than wood. The solid metal would've been too heavy I think. I also believe it's possible that no two were alike. I think depending on where a legion was stationed, and who was constructing it, they would've maybe put their own style on it or have been influenced by things in their region. 

Cheers,
Thomas

Essentially Yes, though you can gild bronze as well and it would depend on who gave them out as too where they were made and hence the style to some degree.
I would have thought that an important standard like an eagle would have been given by the Emperor rather then made in a Legion workshop but I dont know the answer to that?

I guess there would also only be a few dozen Eagles in the Empire at any one time so almost as rare as hens teeth... I guess that rarity would play a large part in survival...
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#8
I'm glad you brought up the idea that the Emperor would have given them to the legion. And, I would say it would probably would have been at the time that legion was raised. For some reason this never crossed my mind? Instead I was thinking more like some craftsman in the legion or nearby where the legion was stationed would have made them. Your idea that they were probably made for the Emperor to give to the legion makes more sense.  Also, as you say there were not that many. Only enough for the number of active legions at any one time. So they would've been very rare objects. But I wonder what would've become of the Eagle Standards for legions that would've been disbanded? Perhaps saved and awarded to new legions?

Cheers,
Thomas
Thomas Guenther
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#9
(06-27-2019, 11:16 AM)Purplest Wrote: But I wonder what would've become of the Eagle Standards for legions that would've been disbanded? Perhaps saved and awarded to new legions?

Cheers,
Thomas

Or perhaps placed in retirement in a sanctuary someday to be raised again.... would make a good tale anyway Smile
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#10
(06-27-2019, 11:16 AM)Purplest Wrote: But I wonder what would've become of the Eagle Standards for legions that would've been disbanded?

Here are a couple of old threads addressing this very question!

What happened to the Eagles?

Where have our Eagles gone?
Nathan Ross
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#11
(06-27-2019, 01:20 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Here are a couple of old threads addressing this very question!

What happened to the Eagles?

Where have our Eagles gone?

Thanks Nathon, I quite like the Coptic Museum Eagle though it neither has gilding or thunderbolts but what appears to be a branch, still that could be changed, a shame they dont give the weight... looks like it might be solid cast but rather flat as well:

http://www.coptic-cairo.com/museum/selec...metal.html
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#12
Thanks Nathan,

I'll be making it a point to read both of the links as soon as I can get away from work. 

Cheers,
Thomas
Thomas Guenther
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#13
Nathan,

Sorry it took me a while to read the two threads you sent. I tried yesterday, but there was a problem with this site. After reading them I feel as though a lot of the same questions have been raised, but there aren't too many answers. Or should I say definitive answers. Due to none of them ever being found there just isn't enough solid information to go on. That being said, I do believe in what a lot of people were saying in regards to the Eagles. In my opinion, because of how they were so highly prized and revered, and how they were carried (especially into battle, etc.), that they would have been made as light as possible and as durable as possible to be handled and withstand these ocassions. It's possible that they could've been gold or silver? And I agree with ("Jeff: Details from Trajan's and Marcus Aurelius' columns as well as other statuary gives me the idea that the Eagles were NOT uniform in appearance. I think our modern military sensibilities would give us a bias toward uniformity which was alien to the Roman Army. It would be likely that each eagle was made by an individual craftsman and as such each would have a unique appearance. Such individuality would do much toward strengthening the esprit d' corps of each legion.") that they probably weren't all the same, but possible that each one was different. Look at the military today. Some things are uniform, but then when you break them down each one has its own title, emblem, motto, etc. It lends to the spirit and loyalty and strength of each unit. I was three years US Navy so I understand the bond and commaraderie that this can promote. Even US ships, although all part of the same navy are individual. Each ship has its own crest and motto. Bottom line is that no one really knows? And untill one of them is found or somehow more information on them surfaces, we just don't know...

Anchors Aweigh,
Thomas
Thomas Guenther
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#14
    This mine, wooden eagle (carved and guilded)
AgrimensorLVCIVS FLAVIVS SINISTER
aka Jos Cremers
member of CORBVLO
ESTE NIX PAX CRISTE NIX
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