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Authenticity Attic Helmet in Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe, Hamburg
#1
Hello Everyone, 

I have recently been reading through D'Amato & Sumner "Arms and Armour of the Imperial Roman Soldier" and came across this "attic" helmet held in the Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe, Hamburg. I am already aware of "fakes" such as the Toledo helmet, however I am interested to know if anyone has further information on this specific example or any theories regarding its authenticity. Any insight would be highly appreciated.

Lorenzo. 

[Image: 3419.jpg]
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#2
There used to be a thread about this helmet on RAT somewhere, but it seems to have disappeared...

From what I recall - completely unprovenanced, supposedly found in Germany 'some time in the 20th century', looks unlike any other Roman helmet known from archaeology, strongly resembles Victorian ideas of what Roman helmets looked like, and has a weird bowl welded together down the middle.

All things considered, most probably a 19th C fake, but nobody knows for sure.
Nathan Ross
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#3
(04-02-2019, 01:36 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: There used to be a thread about this helmet on RAT somewhere, but it seems to have disappeared...


No it hasn't, the thread was on the Facebook group in september 2017:
Hamburg helmet
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#4
Thank you for your replies and apologies for perhaps flogging a dead horse, so to speak. I imagined due to the odd features described by Mr Ross that it would likely be a fake, which is unfortunate, however I am surprised at the sheer lack of information we have on the piece.
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#5
(04-02-2019, 02:53 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: the thread was on the Facebook group in september 2017:
Hamburg helmet

Aha, so it was - although the RAT thread linked there ('Praetorian helmet?... from Hamburg Museum') once more leads to the dreaded The specified thread does not exist.... [Image: shocked.png]
Nathan Ross
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#6
(04-02-2019, 01:36 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: There used to be a thread about this helmet on RAT somewhere, but it seems to have disappeared...

From what I recall - completely unprovenanced, supposedly found in Germany 'some time in the 20th century', looks unlike any other Roman helmet known from archaeology, strongly resembles Victorian ideas of what Roman helmets looked like, and has a weird bowl welded together down the middle.

All things considered, most probably a 19th C fake, but nobody knows for sure.

I mentioned this in the other thread, but bears repeating:

[Image: 0rPWizH.jpg]

[Image: 5YsZ8DU.jpg]

Still waiting for J. C. Coulston's All the Emperor's Men: Roman Soldiers and Barbarians on Trajan's Column...
aka T*O*N*G*A*R
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#7
Since it appears to be unprovenanced it could be a fake an altered original or even a genuine helmet intended for a statue rather then a real live person...
Nathan Ross wrote:
"and has a weird bowl welded together down the middle."

What makes you think that? certainly it not possible to tell from the photo, it looks like patinated bronze in the pic and if this is the case I would suggest its a heavily altered/restored Negauer helm using a lot of wishfull thinking and probably referencing roman art like Trajans Column, the detail decoration on the front piece is also reminicent of an earlier time perhaps early iron age and may not be part of the original... theres been several helmets that follow the same theme and all appear to be old/unprovenanced "finds"..
Helmets of the Negau type vary quite a lot from a low dome to conical and many feature the ridge up the front ( back) :
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ...au_helmets
Just my 2cents not written in stone...
Wink
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#8
(04-04-2019, 11:34 AM)Crispianus Wrote: "bowl welded together down the middle." What makes you think that?

It was another thing I remember reading about this helmet, I think on the RAT thread mentioned above which has now vanished (this one). I don't know who made the point or whether they were relying on anything other than observation!

Yes, it may be a poor reconstruction, or a helmet for a statue, or just a pretty poor fake. No way of telling as far as I'm aware.
Nathan Ross
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#9
(04-06-2019, 03:50 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: It was another thing I remember reading about this helmet, I think on the RAT thread mentioned above which has now vanished (this one). 

I noticed that the original post had been removed, possibly causing the thread to become invisible. Is it back now?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#10
(04-07-2019, 05:40 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: Is it back now?

Yes but no pictures, unfortunately.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#11
(04-07-2019, 05:59 PM)Renatus Wrote:
(04-07-2019, 05:40 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: Is it back now?

Yes but no pictures, unfortunately.

Thanks Robert.

I suspect the picture(s) on the thread was the same as the one on this thread - there doesn't seem to much more out there about this elusive and rather dubious piece!...
Nathan Ross
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