03-27-2019, 03:05 PM
Michael wrote:
Right so, if Appian`s figures aren`t to be relied upon,
I have to interrupt here and reminded you it is Polybius’ figures that cannot be relied upon, and not Appian.
Michael wrote:
what about Livy who gives higher figures for the night attacks - how does he arrive at: forty thousand killed, 5,000 prisoners and "...Carthaginian nobles of whom eleven were senators; 174 standards were captured, 2700 horses..."? Correct or not, these are rather official-looking stats which, as you point out above, include very particular numbers of elephants.
Generally when captured standards and horses are mentioned, the source is Valerius Antias.
Following my previous posting, in which I state, “Polybius’ figure of ‘about’ 10,000 cavalry amounts to 9,700 cavalry. Subtract Livy’s 5,000 captured you end up with 2,700 horses. I really don’t think after a battle, the Romans counted all the dead. However, specific items such as captured senators and elephants get recorded as they are small in numbers. Livy’s 40,000 dead, try 20,000 Roman x 2. 5,000 captured = one Roman legion.
Take the senators and elephants as gospel and ditch the rest. He’s an exercise for anyone up to it. Make a list of all the Carthaginian fleets sizes during the Second Punic War and them make another list of all the Roman fleet sizes and compare them.
Livy (10 35) for 294 BC has 7,800 Romans missing and 7,800 Samnites killed. The Samnite army is just Roman army numbers throughout the Samnite wars, plus a lot of Roman defeats turned into Roman victories. The 20,000 man Samnite linen legion is a Roman consular army turned into one legion. Please, let’s have some common sense.
The numbers for the Gauls at the Allia in 390 BC are taken from the Roman tribal system. The Roman army is described as having those unfit for war at the Allia. These are the capite censi (Class VI) and someone is incorrectly using the tribal system. The Gauls are given at about 40,000 men and then another 30,000 Gauls join up, giving an army of 70,000 Gauls. My tribal research for this time produces 37,800 iuniores and seniores. That is what the reference to about 40,000 men is referring to. The additional 30,000 Gauls are the iuniores amounting to 31,500 iuniores. Add them together and you get 70,000 Gauls rounded. From 390 BC to the Claudine Forks, the outlandish numbers given for the Roman army (10 legions each of 4,200 men and 300 cavalry), and Appian’s 50,000 Romans at the Claudine Fork are taken from the tribal system. At the time of the Claudine Forks, the Romans tribes amount to 52,000 men able to be registered.
Unfortunately, Roman history has been bastardized with the inclusion of patriotic fiction, recycled events and blatant invention.
Right so, if Appian`s figures aren`t to be relied upon,
I have to interrupt here and reminded you it is Polybius’ figures that cannot be relied upon, and not Appian.
Michael wrote:
what about Livy who gives higher figures for the night attacks - how does he arrive at: forty thousand killed, 5,000 prisoners and "...Carthaginian nobles of whom eleven were senators; 174 standards were captured, 2700 horses..."? Correct or not, these are rather official-looking stats which, as you point out above, include very particular numbers of elephants.
Generally when captured standards and horses are mentioned, the source is Valerius Antias.
Following my previous posting, in which I state, “Polybius’ figure of ‘about’ 10,000 cavalry amounts to 9,700 cavalry. Subtract Livy’s 5,000 captured you end up with 2,700 horses. I really don’t think after a battle, the Romans counted all the dead. However, specific items such as captured senators and elephants get recorded as they are small in numbers. Livy’s 40,000 dead, try 20,000 Roman x 2. 5,000 captured = one Roman legion.
Take the senators and elephants as gospel and ditch the rest. He’s an exercise for anyone up to it. Make a list of all the Carthaginian fleets sizes during the Second Punic War and them make another list of all the Roman fleet sizes and compare them.
Livy (10 35) for 294 BC has 7,800 Romans missing and 7,800 Samnites killed. The Samnite army is just Roman army numbers throughout the Samnite wars, plus a lot of Roman defeats turned into Roman victories. The 20,000 man Samnite linen legion is a Roman consular army turned into one legion. Please, let’s have some common sense.
The numbers for the Gauls at the Allia in 390 BC are taken from the Roman tribal system. The Roman army is described as having those unfit for war at the Allia. These are the capite censi (Class VI) and someone is incorrectly using the tribal system. The Gauls are given at about 40,000 men and then another 30,000 Gauls join up, giving an army of 70,000 Gauls. My tribal research for this time produces 37,800 iuniores and seniores. That is what the reference to about 40,000 men is referring to. The additional 30,000 Gauls are the iuniores amounting to 31,500 iuniores. Add them together and you get 70,000 Gauls rounded. From 390 BC to the Claudine Forks, the outlandish numbers given for the Roman army (10 legions each of 4,200 men and 300 cavalry), and Appian’s 50,000 Romans at the Claudine Fork are taken from the tribal system. At the time of the Claudine Forks, the Romans tribes amount to 52,000 men able to be registered.
Unfortunately, Roman history has been bastardized with the inclusion of patriotic fiction, recycled events and blatant invention.
