03-27-2019, 10:44 AM
Michael wrote:
I must admit I was focused on the events of the winter of 202 BC, and zama in particluar, but going back to "The Great Plains" would make Polybius look more suspect too I believe.
Following Polybius’ narrative, at the battle of Utica, Polybius numbers the Carthaginian army at 93,000 men. They lost the battle and the Carthaginians are despondent. But this is about to change. The Carthaginians are exhilarated by the arrival of 4,000 Celtiberians. With the other 30,000 Carthaginians, described by Polybius as rabble, and the 4,000 Celtiberians, the Carthaginians can smell victory. So 4,000 Celtiberians are going to do what 93,000 Carthaginians could not. This account is so stupid it has to be rejected. The figure of 30,000 Carthaginians is the same number of men Appian allocates to Hasdrubal at Utica.
Michael wrote:
I had a quick look at Livy`s and Polybius` versions of the Great Plains. In particluar the absence of stats for these battles is notable; no detailed figures for killed, prisioners, captured standards, or elephants that you find elsewhere in Livy. Polybius lacking then in official data and another battle is fabricated after the event ...and Livy follows Polybius of course.
Although I have posted this on the thread “Zama, the battle that never was,” I’ll post it here. For the Carthaginian army, Polybius allocates the Carthaginian commanders, Hasdrubal and Syphax the following:
Infantry Cavalry Total
Syphax 50000 infantry 10000 cavalry 60000 men
Hasdrubal 30000 infantry 3000 cavalry 33000 men
Total 80000 infantry 13000 cavalry 93000 men
Livy, following Polybius, also gives the Carthaginian army at 93,000 men. Appian allocates Hasdrubal army about 20,000 infantry, 7,000 cavalry and 140 elephants. Appian does not provide any numbers for Syphax’s army. The difference between Hasdrubal’s army and Syphax’s army as given by Polybius amounts to 20,000 infantry and 7,000 cavalry. This is the exact number of infantry and cavalry as given by Appian for Hasdrubal’s army.
Infantry Cavalry Total
Syphax 50000 infantry 10000 cavalry 60000 men
Hasdrubal 30000 infantry 3000 cavalry 33000 men
Difference 20000 infantry 7000 cavalry 27000 men
So how did Polybius arrive at Syphax having an army of 60,000 men? The answer can be found in Appian’s narrative. Scattered throughout Appian’s account preceding the battle of Utica and at the battle of Utica for the Carthaginian armies, can be found the figures for the number of Carthaginian infantry, cavalry, slaves, the men killed, the men that escaped, the number of prisoners and the new Carthaginian recruits levied after the battle. When counted, these figures amount to 90,900 men, consisting of 78,200 infantry and 12,700 cavalry. Missing are 2,100 men needed to match Polybius’ total of 93,000 men. However, Appian has Hasdrubal escape the battlefield with only 500 cavalry, whereas Polybius has Hasdrubal escape with 500 cavalry and about 2,000 infantry, and with the inclusion of Polybius’ 2,000 infantry, this gives a total of 92,900 men (79,200 infantry and 12,700 cavalry), which approximates to Polybius’ figure of 93,000 men (80,000 infantry and 13,000 cavalry).
Polybius’ figure of about 10,000 cavalry for Syphax means the figure is short of 10,000 cavalry. After subtracting Hasdrubal’s 3,000 cavalry from the above figure of 12,700 cavalry, Polybius’ figure of ‘about’ 10,000 cavalry amounts to 9,700 cavalry. In conclusion, Polybius’ figure of 93,000 men for the Carthaginian army includes Carthaginian slaves, and the men killed and captured before, during and after the battle of Utica.
I still haven’t had anyone explain this to me. At Utica Appian mentions there were 140 Carthaginian elephants. Livy has 8 Carthaginian elephants killed and 6 elephants captured for a total of 14 elephants. Appian’s total of 140 elephants has been arrived at by multiplying the 14 elephants by ten. What I find interesting is Polybius makes no mention of elephants at Utica. Are they being kept for his dramatic battle of Zama, in which Livy’s 8 dead elephants will be resurrected as 80 live elephants? Or is it that the source of Appian’s 140 elephants was the original author of the battle of Zama?
At Zama, Appian has Scipio’s infantry numbering 23,000 men. Before the Roman attack on the Carthaginian camps at Utica, according to Polybius, Scipio left 2,000 men behind to protect the camp, which has been rounded down. This would reduce his army to 21,000 men. I do find it interesting that Polybius allocates Masinissa at Utica with about 20,000 men. The book shows this is the Roman army.
Michael wrote:
I think you hinted at this in the Zama thread? and that Baecula was a doublet of Ilipa too...?
Actually, not doublets, just part of the same campaign. Baecula is the original battle, and Ilipa is the pursuit, in which Hasdrubal retreated, regrouped and took up a fortified position. So Ilipa is the follow up battle and happened with days of each other. Someone wanted to give Scipio Africanus the credit of beating Hasdrubal Barca and wanted to partially disguise that Scipio Africanus failed to prevent Hasdrubal Barca from leaving Iberia for Italy. Appian has got this right....again.
I must admit I was focused on the events of the winter of 202 BC, and zama in particluar, but going back to "The Great Plains" would make Polybius look more suspect too I believe.
Following Polybius’ narrative, at the battle of Utica, Polybius numbers the Carthaginian army at 93,000 men. They lost the battle and the Carthaginians are despondent. But this is about to change. The Carthaginians are exhilarated by the arrival of 4,000 Celtiberians. With the other 30,000 Carthaginians, described by Polybius as rabble, and the 4,000 Celtiberians, the Carthaginians can smell victory. So 4,000 Celtiberians are going to do what 93,000 Carthaginians could not. This account is so stupid it has to be rejected. The figure of 30,000 Carthaginians is the same number of men Appian allocates to Hasdrubal at Utica.
Michael wrote:
I had a quick look at Livy`s and Polybius` versions of the Great Plains. In particluar the absence of stats for these battles is notable; no detailed figures for killed, prisioners, captured standards, or elephants that you find elsewhere in Livy. Polybius lacking then in official data and another battle is fabricated after the event ...and Livy follows Polybius of course.
Although I have posted this on the thread “Zama, the battle that never was,” I’ll post it here. For the Carthaginian army, Polybius allocates the Carthaginian commanders, Hasdrubal and Syphax the following:
Infantry Cavalry Total
Syphax 50000 infantry 10000 cavalry 60000 men
Hasdrubal 30000 infantry 3000 cavalry 33000 men
Total 80000 infantry 13000 cavalry 93000 men
Livy, following Polybius, also gives the Carthaginian army at 93,000 men. Appian allocates Hasdrubal army about 20,000 infantry, 7,000 cavalry and 140 elephants. Appian does not provide any numbers for Syphax’s army. The difference between Hasdrubal’s army and Syphax’s army as given by Polybius amounts to 20,000 infantry and 7,000 cavalry. This is the exact number of infantry and cavalry as given by Appian for Hasdrubal’s army.
Infantry Cavalry Total
Syphax 50000 infantry 10000 cavalry 60000 men
Hasdrubal 30000 infantry 3000 cavalry 33000 men
Difference 20000 infantry 7000 cavalry 27000 men
So how did Polybius arrive at Syphax having an army of 60,000 men? The answer can be found in Appian’s narrative. Scattered throughout Appian’s account preceding the battle of Utica and at the battle of Utica for the Carthaginian armies, can be found the figures for the number of Carthaginian infantry, cavalry, slaves, the men killed, the men that escaped, the number of prisoners and the new Carthaginian recruits levied after the battle. When counted, these figures amount to 90,900 men, consisting of 78,200 infantry and 12,700 cavalry. Missing are 2,100 men needed to match Polybius’ total of 93,000 men. However, Appian has Hasdrubal escape the battlefield with only 500 cavalry, whereas Polybius has Hasdrubal escape with 500 cavalry and about 2,000 infantry, and with the inclusion of Polybius’ 2,000 infantry, this gives a total of 92,900 men (79,200 infantry and 12,700 cavalry), which approximates to Polybius’ figure of 93,000 men (80,000 infantry and 13,000 cavalry).
Infantry
6000 infantry (Appian Punic War 9)
5000 slaves (Appian Punic War 9)
20000 infantry (Appian) Punic War 13)
5000 dead (Appian Punic War 15)
1800 prisoners (Appian Punic War 15)
30000 killed in battle (Appian Punic War 23)
2400 prisoners (Appian Punic War 23)
8000 infantry reinforcements (Appian Punic War 24)
2000 infantry (Polybius 14 6 3)
79200 men (rounded to 80,000 infantry)
Cavalry
600 cavalry (Appian Punic War 9)
7000 cavalry (Appian Punic War 13)
1000 cavalry (Appian Punic War 14)
600 cavalry surrender (Appian Punic War 23)
500 cavalry escaped (Appian Punic War 24)
3000 cavalry reinforcements (Appian Punic War 24)
12700 men (rounded to 13,000 cavalry)
Polybius’ figure of about 10,000 cavalry for Syphax means the figure is short of 10,000 cavalry. After subtracting Hasdrubal’s 3,000 cavalry from the above figure of 12,700 cavalry, Polybius’ figure of ‘about’ 10,000 cavalry amounts to 9,700 cavalry. In conclusion, Polybius’ figure of 93,000 men for the Carthaginian army includes Carthaginian slaves, and the men killed and captured before, during and after the battle of Utica.
I still haven’t had anyone explain this to me. At Utica Appian mentions there were 140 Carthaginian elephants. Livy has 8 Carthaginian elephants killed and 6 elephants captured for a total of 14 elephants. Appian’s total of 140 elephants has been arrived at by multiplying the 14 elephants by ten. What I find interesting is Polybius makes no mention of elephants at Utica. Are they being kept for his dramatic battle of Zama, in which Livy’s 8 dead elephants will be resurrected as 80 live elephants? Or is it that the source of Appian’s 140 elephants was the original author of the battle of Zama?
At Zama, Appian has Scipio’s infantry numbering 23,000 men. Before the Roman attack on the Carthaginian camps at Utica, according to Polybius, Scipio left 2,000 men behind to protect the camp, which has been rounded down. This would reduce his army to 21,000 men. I do find it interesting that Polybius allocates Masinissa at Utica with about 20,000 men. The book shows this is the Roman army.
Michael wrote:
I think you hinted at this in the Zama thread? and that Baecula was a doublet of Ilipa too...?
Actually, not doublets, just part of the same campaign. Baecula is the original battle, and Ilipa is the pursuit, in which Hasdrubal retreated, regrouped and took up a fortified position. So Ilipa is the follow up battle and happened with days of each other. Someone wanted to give Scipio Africanus the credit of beating Hasdrubal Barca and wanted to partially disguise that Scipio Africanus failed to prevent Hasdrubal Barca from leaving Iberia for Italy. Appian has got this right....again.
