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Nameless city in Africa taken by Scipio
#46
FAO Steven James,
Regarding the mystical meaning of number in Antias` time I wondered if you`ve seen this...
Valerius Antias and His Numerical Totals: A Reappraisal, Roland A. Laroche
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4435565?rea...b_contents
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#47
Robert Vermaat Wrote:That is good to hear!

It's psychological. You think you are finished and then another discovery. It's like the goal post keeps moving. So I changed my attitude and just accept it if more insights follow, and forget about pushing to get it finished. And last week it happened again. I had to go back to the beginning of the republic and change the cavalry doctrines. A few years ago I did something with Hyginus' cavalry descriptions and numbers. However, the result was a one off and I could not support this doctrine being prevalent anywhere else. At the beginning of last week, I was doing a revision of how the cavalry are arrayed on the battlefield, when a percentage of the cavalry are allocated to guarding the camp. Now I had the right numbers of cavalry allocated to guard the camp, but how the remainder of the cavalry were arrayed on the battlefield by wrong. I had an additional frontage of 30 horses. The doctrine they are using is the one I found some years back with Hyginus. It was not a one off. This has thrown new light on how Hyginus has come up with his numbers. He is combining the cavalry numbers for two cavalry doctrines when making his calculations. One of the changes I had missed, and because it was so subtle, was that the Romans changed the orientation of the cavalry century. This has to do with the legion's organisation being able to create cavalry lanes. The frontage of the lane must be in proportion to the frontage of the cavalry. This little piece of information helps to identify the size of the legion if unknown or the size of the cavalry squadron. I used this method to process all the cavalry sizes for the Late Roman army, and then created the legion based on the size of the cavalry lanes required. In true Roman fashion, they follow a formula.

This exposed cavalry doctrine can get tricky at times, and it looks like it is the same method applied to the seniores in the Late Roman Army, both infantry and cavalry. So it has a long history, and looks like it was introduced at during the return of the consulship in 362 BC, and very prominent during the Third Samnite War.

So it's been one long revision involving redoing most of the cavalry diagrams. But it has reveal a little more. For the battle of the Trebbia in 217 BC, Polybius has subtracted the correct number of cavalry left behind to guard both consul's camps. However, Polybius has subtracted the correct cavalry from the rounded cavalry total, and that is why he ends up with "about 4,000 cavalry."

So here I am again, going backwards in order to go forwards.
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#48
(07-18-2019, 08:02 AM)Steven James Wrote:
Robert Vermaat Wrote:That is good to hear!

Steven answered:
"It's psychological. You think you are finished and then another discovery. It's like the goal post keeps moving. So I changed my attitude and just accept it if more insights follow, and forget about pushing to get it finished. And last week it happened again. I had to go back to the beginning of the republic and change the cavalry doctrines. A few years ago I did something with Hyginus' cavalry descriptions and numbers. However, the result was a one off and I could not support this doctrine being prevalent anywhere else. At the beginning of last week, I was doing a revision of how the cavalry are arrayed on the battlefield, when a percentage of the cavalry are allocated to guarding the camp. Now I had the right numbers of cavalry allocated to guard the camp, but how the remainder of the cavalry were arrayed on the battlefield by wrong. I had an additional frontage of 30 horses. The doctrine they are using is the one I found some years back with Hyginus. It was not a one off. This has thrown new light on how Hyginus has come up with his numbers. He is combining the cavalry numbers for two cavalry doctrines when making his calculations. One of the changes I had missed, and because it was so subtle, was that the Romans changed the orientation of the cavalry century. This has to do with the legion's organisation being able to create cavalry lanes. The frontage of the lane must be in proportion to the frontage of the cavalry. This little piece of information helps to identify the size of the legion if unknown or the size of the cavalry squadron. I used this method to process all the cavalry sizes for the Late Roman army, and then created the legion based on the size of the cavalry lanes required. In true Roman fashion, they follow a formula.

This exposed cavalry doctrine can get tricky at times, and it looks like it is the same method applied to the seniores in the Late Roman Army, both infantry and cavalry. So it has a long history, and looks like it was introduced at during the return of the consulship in 362 BC, and very prominent during the Third Samnite War.

So it's been one long revision involving redoing most of the cavalry diagrams. But it has reveal a little more. For the battle of the Trebbia in 217 BC, Polybius has subtracted the correct number of cavalry left behind to guard both consul's camps. However, Polybius has subtracted the correct cavalry from the rounded cavalry total, and that is why he ends up with "about 4,000 cavalry."

So here I am again, going backwards in order to go forwards."

Steven,
If cavalry were made to pass through Roman infantry, the space through which they manoeuvred would have been roughly the same size as a deployed century right (allowing for sub-unit intervals)? Would they have used the same procedures as for a deploying maniple?
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#49
Michael Collins Wrote:
Quote:Steven,
If cavalry were made to pass through Roman infantry, the space through which they manoeuvred would have been roughly the same size as a deployed century right (allowing for sub-unit intervals)? Would they have used the same procedures as for a deploying maniple?

The cavalry lanes are made by ordines. This is the most overlooked concept by academics. They do not get it. The ordo is commanded by a centurion ordinarii. I guard my research into the ordo very carefully. Understand the ordo and you unlock the legion. However, I am extremely happy that academics and many on this forum believe an ordo is another name for a maniple.
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#50
(07-18-2019, 09:39 AM)Steven James Wrote:
Michael Collins Wrote:
Quote:Steven,
If cavalry were made to pass through Roman infantry, the space through which they manoeuvred would have been roughly the same size as a deployed century right (allowing for sub-unit intervals)? Would they have used the same procedures as for a deploying maniple?

The cavalry lanes are made by ordines. This is the most overlooked concept by academics. They do not get it. The ordo is commanded by a centurion ordinarii. I guard my research into the ordo very carefully. Understand the ordo and you unlock the legion. However, I am extremely happy that academics and many on this forum believe an ordo is another name for a maniple.

"Ordo", as far as I'm aware, is used for several things from banks of oars to rows of bleachers to ranks to, occasionally, "units" (or maniple). But I've other threads to get to rather than begin again! And I'm stuffed after a long day. Again. Too tired for a decent few red wines. That is, I'm afraid, criminal....
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#51
(07-18-2019, 09:39 AM)Steven James Wrote:
Michael Collins Wrote:
Quote:Steven,
If cavalry were made to pass through Roman infantry, the space through which they manoeuvred would have been roughly the same size as a deployed century right (allowing for sub-unit intervals)? Would they have used the same procedures as for a deploying maniple?

The cavalry lanes are made by ordines. This is the most overlooked concept by academics. They do not get it. The ordo is commanded by a centurion ordinarii. I guard my research into the ordo very carefully. Understand the ordo and you unlock the legion. However, I am extremely happy that academics and many on this forum believe an ordo is another name for a maniple.

It`s OK, I found I already had this very useful article on the subject; The_Roman_Legion_of_406_BC Wink
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#52
Michael Collins Wrote:It`s OK, I found I already had this very useful article on the subject; The_Roman_Legion_of_406_BC Wink

It's been awhile since I posted that paper. I lot has changed.
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#53
(07-19-2019, 07:14 AM)Steven James Wrote:
Michael Collins Wrote:It`s OK, I found I already had this very useful article on the subject; The_Roman_Legion_of_406_BC Wink

It's been awhile since I posted that paper. I lot has changed.

Care to elaborate?
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#54
Michael Collins Wrote:Care to elaborate?

Not really, I don't want to give the other Michael ideas.
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#55
(07-19-2019, 01:46 PM)Steven James Wrote:
Michael Collins Wrote:Care to elaborate?

Not really, I don't want to give the other Michael ideas.

Then why bother with such on an open forum whose purpose is to discuss such ideas? Have you put this up for publication and peer review?
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#56
Paralus Wrote:Then why bother with such on an open forum whose purpose is to discuss such ideas? Have you put this up for publication and peer review?

Wrong Michael. Too many Michaels popping up.

https://www.academia.edu/29930853/The_Ro..._of_406_BC
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#57
(07-20-2019, 01:12 AM)Steven James Wrote: Wrong Michael. Too many Michaels popping up.

https://www.academia.edu/29930853/The_Ro..._of_406_BC

Perhaps it's best to use "Paralus"? No offence taken you know. I've been called much worse...

I've already dowloaded that from Academia. Yet to get the time to read it. Client function this evening at the NSW Art Gallery. Would dearly love to have a weekend to myself!
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
Reply
#58
Paralus Wrote:Perhaps it's best to use "Paralus"? No offence taken you know. I've been called much worse...

I've already dowloaded that from Academia. Yet to get the time to read it. Client function this evening at the NSW Art Gallery. Would dearly love to have a weekend to myself!

Paralus it is.  Have a look at your reputation numbers, they are on the rise and fast. I've got two negatives from my old mate. Have I ever posted some of the off line messages I've got from some on this forum. You get to see what they are really made of. Really in need of anger management.
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#59
(07-20-2019, 01:55 AM)Steven James Wrote:
Paralus Wrote:Perhaps it's best to use "Paralus"? No offence taken you know. I've been called much worse...

I've already dowloaded that from Academia. Yet to get the time to read it. Client function this evening at the NSW Art Gallery. Would dearly love to have a weekend to myself!

Paralus it is.  Have a look at your reputation numbers, they are on the rise and fast. I've got two negatives from my old mate. Have I ever posted some of the off line messages I've got from some on this forum. You get to see what they are really made of. Really in need of anger management.

Yes, you will get that. I note there is a "warning level". I imagine "negatives" are the opposite of "reputation"? Don't see any on my profile. I must be an angel.
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
Reply
#60
Paralus
Quote:I imagine "negatives" are the opposite of "reputation"? Don't see any on my profile. I must be an angel.


I can send you some if you like, or you feel you are being left out. On the other hand, I won't bother with such pettiness. It would mak me small minded.
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