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Six Numeri for Honorius
#16
(05-03-2018, 04:56 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: I'm tending towards the idea that the Notitia Dignitatum was first drafted in c.AD370, and records the situation during the dual east/west rule of Valentinian I and Valens, with an approximate balance of forces in the two halves of the empire. Northern Britain would be out of date already by that point, still in chaos after the so-called 'barbarian conspiracy'.


I think that's too bold. We can see the changes/updates in the ND because some lists are out of step with others - an original eastrn list from 370 would need to have those 'altered' lists of 394 to show the major changes of, say, 378. And how would Britain be in chaos but, apparently, still not changed by 394?


(05-03-2018, 04:56 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: I would guess that the Octavani were the original mobile detachment of VIII Augusta, perhaps dating back to Constantine or even Diocletian. After the limitanei were withdrawn from the Rhine in c.401 whatever was left of the original legion might have ended up garrisoning Vesontio - or, as you say, the palatine legion might have ended up there. Interesting that the Vesontes ended up in Spain as well - they could have been 're-mobilised' by Constantius III in c.412, or taken across the Pyrennes by Asterius in 419 or the Magister Militum Castinus in 422 - if the Notitia was still being updated that late!


That's possible, but that could also have happened post-350s, after which we see those units incorporated in the field armies.
Summarising Hoffmann and Scharf would take up too much time.. Why can't you read German!  Angel


(05-03-2018, 04:56 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: I still think the later date of 402 is as least as likely as 394, but there's no way of telling... I also suspect Stilicho would have wanted to keep all the field army units he could get his hands on together in one place, to counter the east and/or Alaric - so this mixed-up array of troops could have stayed together for several years anyway.


I think Hoffmann's point is that Stilicho did not keep that army together in Northern Italy, but took action against Alaric with the object of securing power over Arcadius. However, while campaigning with the combined armies he was put in his place by Rufinus who recalled the Eastern army and took them home. 

That makes 394/5 the only time when we find so many units of East and West in that very spot I think?
Robert Vermaat
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#17
(05-03-2018, 05:43 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: an original eastrn list from 370 would need to have those 'altered' lists of 394 to show the major changes of, say, 378. And how would Britain be in chaos but, apparently, still not changed by 394?

Oh sure, I didn't mean that the 370 list remained unaltered - just that this date would be first when an officially divided empire would (or could, or would need to) draw up such a document.

However, maybe our ideas about 'updating' are too modern? It seems as though, while some bits were certainly updated (whole sections deleted, or totally changed, as in the Rhine areas), this thoroughness was not carried across all the lists - other sections just had new information added without old and outdated stuff being removed. Quite what whoever was doing this thought they were doing, and why, is anybody's guess - maybe there's some distinctly Late Roman method to the madness!

That's why I doubt that whatever remedy was applied to the chaotic state of northern Britain was properly reflected in the ND. Perhaps the addition of a small central field force under the Comes Britanniae was a symptom of the instability of the northern British frontier throughout that era?


(05-03-2018, 05:43 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: Why can't you read German!

Indeed! And why can't I read Latin, or Greek, or French, or Italian, or... [Image: sad.png]


(05-03-2018, 05:43 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: That makes 394/5 the only time when we find so many units of East and West in that very spot I think?

Possibly - although there's only one unit from the east, the Hiberi, as far as I can see... unless the 'Regii' are the eastern auxilia numerus?

One would think that the immediate aftermath of Frigidus would see far more 'victorious' eastern units in the area than 'defeated' western ones.
Nathan Ross
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#18
Just as an addendum to this, I came across a couple of quotes over the weekend which might have some bearing on troops movements and/or dispositions over this period.

Firstly, a letter from Honorius to Arcadius, dated AD404 - this is quoted by Burns in Barbarians Within the Gates... - talks of "the destruction of dying Illyricum" and the "losses to the state" there. Burns doesn't provide a reference that I can see, but I think it's probably from Palladius's Life of John Chrysostom.

Anyway, this suggests that Illyricum was in a pretty poor state in the mid 410s, and thereforefore probably did not have a large number of Roman regular troops stationed in it - certainly not the full complement listed in the ND. So what happened to the units formerly stationed there? Who knows!

Secondly, an odd little note on Orosius, Against the Pagans, book 7. This relates to the usurper Maximus, raised by Gerontius in Spain c.409:

Maximus, stripped of the purple and abandoned by the troops of Gaul, which were transferred to Africa and then recalled to Italy, is now a needy exile living among the barbarians in Spain (Maximus exutus purpura destitutusque a militibus Gallicanis, qui in Africam traiecti, deinde in Italiam reuocati sunt, nunc inter barbaros in Hispania egens exulat.)

The 'troops of Gaul' are, I would guess, the remnants of the Gallic field army, or whatever limitanei units Constantine III managed to scrape together to send into Spain with Gerontius and his son Constans. So some time between Gerontius's death in 411 and Orosius's probable writing date of 417, these Gallic troops were shipped over to Africa, and then 'recalled' to Italy!
Nathan Ross
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#19
Tongue 
(05-03-2018, 06:17 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Indeed! And why can't I read Latin, or Greek, or French, or Italian, or... [Image: sad.png]
Nathan,
I knew there was a reason I felt comfortable in this forum! Big Grin

I agree with your assessment that the Gallic Field Army was in Italy with Stilicho fighting first Alaric and then Radagaisus.
But, your question about these 4000 men forming the cadre of a reinvigorated field army and Stilicho scrambling to field
30 units to face Radagaisus makes be wonder about the ND.  It lists dozens and dozens of units available to both Magisters.
Yes, the West is in constant crisis.

So, is this a case like the late-war Wehrmacht where battalions are actually the size of platoons and all the proud units in the ND
are actually ghost formations, or, is this a case of the Roman Army being garrisoned to death - plenty of men around, but none
can be spared for the field army?  There was a prior post discussing that topic (started by you, I believe) and it seems that there
must have been a massive effort involved to concentrate the various units scattered around the Po Valley.

Austin
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#20
Late to reply here:

Yeah sorry, Comes Illyricum was the force that was ambushed in 409, not the force sent to Ravenna.

And although I think you're right, that parts of the Notitia were out of date by 410, other parts weren't. I have a paper on the Dux Mogontiacum command which points towards it being established in 411, for example, and I believe it's either Richardot or Fleuriot who suggests the final updates were in 428.

It's kind of a "snapshot in motion" if you will.
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#21
(05-07-2018, 09:25 PM)Aussum Wrote: battalions are actually the size of platoons and all the proud units in the ND are actually ghost formations, or, is this a case of the Roman Army being garrisoned to death - plenty of men around, but none can be spared for the field army?

I'd be inclined to the former idea, except that we have what appears to be good evidence (from Zosimus and Sozomen) of units totalling quite healthy numbers - apparently c.600 for one sort and c.1200 for another. There's also the inscription from Rome to a member of the Cornuti Seniores, dated to AD407 at the earliest, and the Honorius Letter mentioned above, from even later, listing several regular army units - so the 'prestige' units of the ND were apparently still in existence and still able to take the field!

But I wonder about the effects of low recruitment. While some units may have been kept up to full strength (and it might be significant that both the five-unit group from Dalmatia and the six units from the east came from outside Italy), others may have been reduced to a skeleton, or even disbanded altogether.

Garrisoning might be another issue, as you say. Zosimus mentions units being stationed in various cities across northern Italy during Alaric's ravagings - this was at the height of the campaigning season, so there would normally be no reason for troops to remain in billets. Perhaps with cities turned into strongholds, and the difficulties of guarding precious supply depots (many armies seem to have had problems with logistics during this period, especially food), keeping the regular army in garrisons and letting the irregulars - whether foederati or Hunnic symmachiarii or whatever - fight the battles was seen as more effective use of manpower?
Nathan Ross
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#22
(04-30-2018, 09:19 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: The units were under the command of the Magister Militum per Illyricum, who was - at least in c.399-401 and c.405-407 or thereabouts - Alaric himself! (or that seems to be the situation anyway - it's very confusing...) 

What's the source for Alaric having this title? It is indeed confusing.


I thought the main reason for Alaric's revolt was that he didn't get a Roman command as he expected, and as a result didn't have access to Roman grain and wages for his men. It was my understanding that after Theodosius' death, Alaric became a rogue warlord.
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#23
(06-22-2018, 03:58 AM)Justin I Wrote: What's the source for Alaric having this title?

PLRE 2 (pp 44-45) gives Claudian In Eutrop II 214-18, and Bello Get 496-7 and 535-9 as sources - they suggest Alaric as MVM Per Illyricum 'by 399'.

It is indeed confusing, and one of the most baffling turnarounds in later Roman history; in 396 Alaric was ravaging Greece as leader of a Gothic warband, in 397 he was fighting Stilicho in Greece and then withdrawing into Epirus, and then suddenly a year later he emerges as one of the principal generals of the eastern empire! This gives him access to the arsenals of Illyricum, allowing him to resupply and rearm his troops.

Whenever it happened, the eastern Pr Pr Eutropius appears to have awarded the title to Alaric in order to bring him under some kind of control - if that makes sense - and use him as a tool against Stilicho and the west. Or so it would seem...

As far as I understand it, this went wrong around 400 or so, when the prefecture of Illyricum, temporarily assigned in toto to the east since Theodosius's day, was once more divided between east and west - leaving Alaric in the western part and therefore out of a job. This was why Alaric invaded Italy in the following year - presumably he guessed that the western court would award him a similar title to the one earlier awarded by the east, in order to get rid of him again. It sort of worked too - after a lot of fighting he ended up as (western) Comes Illyrici in c.407...

Looking over all this, I'm struck once more by the apparent inability of the western empire to defend itself very adequately. Stilicho appears to have had virtually no strategic reserves in 401, very little of a field force, and had to assemble an army from scraps. Another suggestion, maybe, that the ND was hopelessly out of date by the turn of the century?
Nathan Ross
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#24
(06-22-2018, 12:44 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: It is indeed confusing, and one of the most baffling turnarounds in later Roman history; in 396 Alaric was ravaging Greece as leader of a Gothic warband, in 397 he was fighting Stilicho in Greece and then withdrawing into Epirus, and then suddenly a year later he emerges as one of the principal generals of the eastern empire! This gives him access to the arsenals of Illyricum, allowing him to resupply and rearm his troops.

Whenever it happened, the eastern Pr Pr Eutropius appears to have awarded the title to Alaric in order to bring him under some kind of control - if that makes sense - and use him as a tool against Stilicho and the west. Or so it would seem...

Thank you for the source on that. Those magister militum posts can be hard to keep track of, especially in regards to Illyricum around that time when Ravenna and Constantinople were arguing over who was entitled to that region.
An appointment like that is probably what the western court should have given Alaric in 395 after Theodosius' death. I get the sense that Stilicho wanted to do this, based on his subsequent actions, but it was politically unpalatable. Alaric and his men proved at the Battle of the Frigidus that they were brave and loyal -- and probably deserved some official, permanent status in the western army. 
I keep reading and re-reading about this era, trying to glean some new information, and it's hard not to feel some sympathy for Alaric. He seems like  a reasonable man who was treated unreasonably.
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