The two Vegetii

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Aha, you've altered your opinion since this debate last year, Evan! [Image: wink.png]

This is because I read Goffart's arguments regarding federate settlement and realized how Vegetius' comments fit in perfectly with this.

I'm sorry; I wasn't there, so I cannot be adamant as to whether Ammianus is right or wrong. However, I do believe that he had reliable informants, the magister equitum Victor for one, and am therefore inclined to believe him.

The Romans were calling them Huns, but they were not Huns. They were just Oghur speakers. They end up in Pannonia under Theodosius I and then get moved to Thrace, where Rua wipes them out in 422. They were called Alpidzur and Tongur, not Huns. They may have claimed to be Huns (and they certainly could pass for Huns as they spoke Hunnish and were ethnically related), but the Hun political body was still on the Volga at the time, there's no way they could have been serving in Gothic armies from the Carpathian-Dniester region.

There hadn't been a major invasion from the steppes since the 3rd century and the name Hun was only transmitted to the Kuban by the Baktrians in the 360's. It's not surprising that the Romans had never encountered an Oghur Speaker before (they only appeared on the Don-Volga around 300ish).

Regarding Alans and Huns, Milner (intro to Epitome, p.xl) notes that V appears to regard them as one people (III,26), whereas, Milner says, 'they split up when the Alans joined the Vandals in 406, and the Huns remained settled in Pannonia until AD 427' - Milner sees this as evidence that V was writing before 406; although we might wonder whether a Roman writer of the day would be aware of this change, or even care...

427 is when Felix campaigned against "the Huns" in Pannonia (when Rua and Octar were already in the basin). The Huns settled in Pannonia by Theodosius were moved to Thrace in... the late 390's, IIRC (I need to check on that one).

Aetius employed a lot of Alans, so there's no reason he couldn't be referring to Huns, Alans, and Goths in Aetius' army as one body.

(Milner also suggests that the two Vegetii were one and the same, and perhaps served as Comes Stabuli, which might explain the horse-sense - although whether the officer of this title had anything practical to do with stables and horses is unknown, I think!...)

Yep, although IIRC Rance disagrees.

The same passage (III,26) praises the emperor's skills in archery and horsemanship, which supposedly rival those of the Persians, the Huns and the Alans (!), and his weapons training generally - we might recall here that Valentinian III was murdered - by two 'barbarian' soldiers, probably Goths or Huns - while training with the bow...

Also a good point. Valentinian III is also mentioned dismounting from horseback when he's assassinated.