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The Augustan Army ; the continuation of the manipel organization
#16
(06-28-2019, 06:59 PM)Julian de Vries Wrote: "... javelin-men, and light-armed troops, common soldiers, and companies... ferentarii, ac levis armaturœ, et miles gregarius, et manipuli ..."

It's interesting that Jerome uses similar terminology to Vegetius here. ferentarii et levis armatura appears in Vegetius II.15, Ferentarii... hoc est levis armatura in II.18. II.13 has Contubernium autem manipulus vocabatur, and II.14 begins Quemadmodum inter pedites centuria uel manipulus appellatur. Veg doesn't mention milites gregarii though.

This could mean that all this was just common military terminology of the period, or that Jerome had read Vegetius (!)... I still wonder whether the veredarii of the Perge tablets are actually the ferentarii of Vegetius and Jerome.

Odd that Jerome seems to list manipuli as if it's a rank or grade, rather than an organisational subunit (Veg reckons it's the same as contubernium, which wouldn't make much sense in Jerome's context either...) But the churchman Jerome, living at that point in a monastery in Palestine, may have had little idea of the real organisation of the contemporary Roman army and perhaps was just throwing together a collection of well-known military words.
Nathan Ross
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#17
Nathan Ross Wrote:Odd that Jerome seems to list manipuli as if it's a rank or grade, rather than an organisational subunit (Veg reckons it's the same as contubernium, which wouldn't make much sense in Jerome's context either...) But the churchman Jerome, living at that point in a monastery in Palestine, may have had little idea of the real organisation of the contemporary Roman army and perhaps was just throwing together a collection of well-known military words.

Jerome may be or Jerome may not. The important thing is to run with it and see where it goes. Too many first dismiss without any investigation.
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#18
On the 'Standard-Bearers' at Strasbourg: Libanius, Or. 18.58-66
https://www.academia.edu/7086930/On_the_...._18.58-66

My interpretation is that the ”semeia” of Libanius are not a vexillatio but actually means maniple.
The Latin “signum” can be used to designate maniple, for example:

The Fragments of the Roman Historians Oxford University Press, 2013

20. Sempronius Asellio
F15 (=Peter F14, Chassignet F15) cf. Scaurus 18 F7
Serv. Aen. 12.121-2

(V) The Ausonian legion sets forth, and the close-packed columns pour out of the crowded gates.
(DS) Asellio in his Histories: the fourth maniple of the triarii was advancing, whether it wished to make its way in close order or in a scattered fashion.
*
(V) procedit legio Ausonidum, pilataque plenis agmina se fundunt portis…
(DS) Asellio historiarum: triariorum quartum signum accedebat, siue pilatim siue passim iter facere uolebat.

https://books.google.nl/books?id=U38fAgA...ts&f=false

If we accept the a priori fact that Libanius’ Latin corrospondence is translated for him then the Greek term “semeia” has been translated from the Latin term “signum”. This solution would clear Libanius’ account of the battle.
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#19
Maniples, primi ordinis and ante signa in Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, Declamationes Maiores

Miles Marianus, or a Soldier under Marius

I had knowledge of this text for some time, but recently I found (the only?) translation in any modern language in a 17th century book. This text, I believe, contains some authentic information on the structure of the Roman Army.

Latin Text
https://latin.packhum.org/loc/1002/3/2/10277-10284#2

English Translation (Starting at Page 55)
https://books.google.nl/books?id=G1BoAAA...&q&f=false
*
Maniples

The chief thing now in debate, is, Whether it be lawful hereafter to levy Foul Pathicks amongst the Bands of the Roman Legions, and drag Soldiers, who have taken a Solemn Oath, to unclean villany, by your Authority?

[apud quos ante principia gerendum
est.] ecce cum maxime hoc agitur, ut inter Romanarum
legionum manipulos scorta deligere et ad stuprum trahere
sacramento rogatos post haec liceat ex decreto tuo.
*
ante signa

1. This very thing, That he ran foremost before the Ensigns, that being but a Tiro he was more forward than the Veterans, that he used to return clotted with Blood and Dust, This, this, I say, was the reason, why he was so gallant a Stripling.

hoc ipsum,
quod primus ante signa procurrit, quod veteranos tiro prae-
cedit, quod redit pulvere et cruore concretus, istud, istud
quod tam vir est.

2. He laid violent hands upon him, he drew him from his assigned Post and Station, to make him a beastly Prostitute.

inicitur manus, et ab adsignata statione
miles abducitur, ut stuprum patiatur

3. There put him in the Fore-Front, place him, I say, not among the Punys, but ( let me speak a proud word) even before the Standard, where most danger is, and where the greatest throng of the Enemy presses the sorest.

pone
in prima acie, pone ante signa, fortiter dixerim, non inter
tirones, ubi plus periculi, quo maximus hostium globus in-
gruet
*
primi ordinis

He is a stout man, he hath Authority for what he doth, the Law of Arms commands it.

vir est enim; '<at> auctorem habet, ho<mo> primi ordinis iube[n]t

Here I do not agree with the translation of primi ordinis with: “Law of Arms”, especially in regards to the next sentence, which might be interpreted as a centurion ordinarius (ordines ducet).

Vir            est enim; <at> auctorem habet, ho<mo> primi ordinis         iube[n]t

Brave man is truly: at least authority have, man       military formation commands

I interpret this as:

He is a brave man, he has authority, he commands the primi ordinis.

It seems this part of the text as I see it, relates to the tribune.

If this is correct then it seems we have discovered a rare army doctrine of the primi ordines are commanded by the tribunus?!
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