Ave,<br>
<br>
I am sorry Jackie but your question about an informal toga proofs that you didn't have the chance to wear one yet.<br>
The sheer bulk of the bloody blanket forces one to behave in formal ways. You can't do anything usefull in a toga, exept looking formal and important.<br>
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Another thing. If you think of people who were a modern toga (lawyers,judges,professors), they never use a toga to go out for the weekend.<br>
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As far as I know a toga was a traditional Roman formal dress for special occassions. Augustus has made laws to wear a toga in the arena and the forum. So it wasn't a very popular garment. The informal toga did not excist, because toga's were formal as part of their nature. So a word or translation for informal toga also did not excist. Or did it ?<br>
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Looking for a translation on an "informal toga" is looking for something like an informal weddingsuit. I have not seen it yet, but if you find it I think you will find it is a rare case, the one exeption to the rule.<br>
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But I love exeptions. So I will join you in your search for this white raven.<br>
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Greetings,<br>
<br>
Gaius Civilus<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Gaius Civilis,<br>
<br>
        Just to come to Jackie's defense, my question was a joke. Her reference in an earlier thread to "formal toga" brought forth her response and mine. There is no such thing as an informal toga, and Jackie knows it. Just as were no such things as "toga parties" in ancient Rome.<br>
       <br>
        But I have to disagree with some of your characterization. You said, 'you can't do anything useful in a toga;' the duties of citizenship, participation in the courts of law and the law making, engaging in business between patron and client are not useless enterprises. It was not only for special occasions, but for the everyday conduct of business and law. These things are the life blood and very character of Roma itself. The toga was not for barabarians; it inculcated discipline and character and manly strength to the citizen. These things are never useless; they just don't happen to be much frivilous fun (that was what the pallium was for). One thing that I have yet to put on the website, but is a favorite part of my presentations, is how easy it was for the togatus to contribute the ammoniua and urea of his kidneys into the buckets outside the fulloniæ. Hardly useless, and sometimes downright necessary as well as profitable.<br>
<br>
Wade Heaton<br>
Lucius Cornelius Libo<br>
[email protected] <br>
www.togaman.com <p></p><i></i>
Ave Togaman,<br>
<br>
It was not my intention to attack Jackie and I must make my<br>
appologies to her if it seemed that way. Mea culpa Jackie.<br>
<br>
I just wanted to point out that a toga doesn't give a person much chance to do "useful", that is "outdoor" or "physical" , work. This is not to say, that the work of men in toga is not useful. In my roles as sacerdos and duumvir I wear a toga myself. Yes, I am a togaman too. I fully agree with you on the importance of the tasks that were (and are) carried out by togati. Still a toga remains a rather static and formal dress.<br>
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Maybe this is not the right place to ask, the original topic being winterwear, but could you give me some more information on doing business in toga? I am aware of rules for wearing toga's in lawcourts, fora, arena's, temples and on special occasions. Are there special rules for wearing a toga if I want to sign a contract outside the places mentioned above?<br>
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Vale,<br>
<br>
Gaivs Civilvs<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
No offence taken Gaius Civilis.<br>
<br>
Wade, I did have my suspicions, but a smiley to indicate it was a joke would have saved me puzzling over how to take that one! <p></p><i></i>
Jackie,<br>
        Emoticons don't work on my system. In future, I will supply them verbally, as in (Smiley Face icon), OK?<br>
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Gaius Civilis,<br>
        In answer to your query, since we've already ranged far from winter wear: we have much textual evidence that all citizens were required to wear the toga in public spaces, while conducting offical business. Otherwise they could get away with wearing the pallium. Public spaces could differ from ours, for instance, public baths were private spaces, but the one that gets the most commentary is the atrium of the domus.<br>
        In the morning of all ordinary business days, the cliens was required to wait outside the atrium of the domus of the patronus, the line sometimes stretching into the street. In order of precedence, the clientes were admitted to the "office," a space adjacent to the atrium, where the patronus sat at his desk. The client stood; both were required to be togate. The poets, who depended on the generosity of the patron, stood at the back of the line and Ovid, Martial, and Juvenal complain profusely about the discomfort and inconvenience. Horace revels in his joy at the gift from Mæcenas of a house and land where he will no longer have to stand in line and sweat from heat and anxiety. Martial has one epigram recounting the misery of waiting on his slow, methodical patronus on a very hot day and all the clients using the overfolds of the toga's sinus to fan themselves.<br>
        Business was usually conducted in the morning before the sun got really hot. After the noon meal came the baths and presumably the morning sweat could be cleansed. The evening was for dinner clothes or "cenatoria" if one could afford such.<br>
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I hope this helps.<br>
<br>
Wade Heaton<br>
Lucius Cornelius Libo<br>
[email protected] <br>
www.togaman.com <p></p><i></i>
Ave togaman,<br>
<br>
Thanks. Yes, this helps. I forgot the salutatio. I think I will take up my Martialis on this. Yesterday I was reading a new Belgian book on the Roman army. The author,Bernard van Daele, stated that the equites of the early Roman Republic (4th century BC.) wore a toga when riding on horseback into battle. He doesn't mention any sources. Do you know something of this? Or is this to much Roman Army Talk?<br>
I always thougt that a toga was civilian dress. I have been riding a horse in a toga once or twice. It isn't very handy to do battle in. Even if the Republican army represented the citizens of Rome under arms, I would have preferred a tunic and a breastplate instead of a tunic and a toga. But who knows...<br>
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Vale ,<br>
<br>
Gaivs Civilvs <p></p><i></i>
Gaivs,<br>
        We are going very far afield of winter wear here and maybe we need a new thread for all this toga lore. There was an old debate on RAT called "Togas and Troops" that had some of this. The is also an existing post on a thread about fighting in the ranks where I talk about the "devotio" of Publius Decimus Mus in the 3rd century where he took off his armor and togated himaelf to ride into battle and sacrifice himself for victory (belted tightly in a Cinctus Gabinus). I feel that your source had made the common error non-specialists do in calling every article of ancient clothing worn by any race or gender a toga. Although in the 4th Century togas were smaller, they would have had to have been pinned and belted to the extent they were really not togas, but more like a Greek chlamys. Even a small toga would seem to me very impractical for riding itself, let alone fighting on horseback. Since he does not mention sources, it is likely that he isn't too scrupulous about what he calls a toga. The pænula or læna would have been more obvious and practical riding cloaks. But the 4th Century the tunic whould have already been adopted and apractical cloak worn with it.<br>
<br>
Wade Heaton<br>
Lucius Cornelius Libo<br>
[email protected] <br>
www.togaman.com <p></p><i></i>
Ave togaman,<br>
<br>
Yes, your right we need to go back to winterwear here.<br>
And your also right about this new Belgian writer. Maybe he is confusing a toga with another garment. He just makes the statement and gives no sources. It made me wonder.<br>
Still, thanks for your comments. If I have time to investigate I will look in to this matter further and start a new thread.<br>
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Well, back to the Roman winter wonder limes.<br>
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Salve,<br>
<br>
Gaivs <p></p><i></i>
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