armour for centurion

[Cacaius]

Hello

We have hot discussion in our group in Poland about centurion's armours examples.

The question is .. does Centurion could wear lorica segmentata in 1 and 2 AD? ... I did a small research, but I cant find any examples from sculpture and other sources to confirm this thesis.

[Peroni]

Salve,

Our Centurio wears segmentata. LEG XIIII GMV (RMRS) UK

See photo on

http://www.romanarmy.net/Military.htm

If the armour was available, there seems to be no reason why a centurio wouldn't wear it.

Regards,

[Cacaius]

If the armour was available, there seems to be no reason why a centurio wouldn't wear it.

Thank you for answer
But for me your explanation is still questionable, I would like to find any evidence for it.

If anybody saw centurio wearing lorica segmentata on a sculpture, fresco or whatever from ancient times, please do not hesitate to share with this information.

Thanks

[Praefectusclassis]

Hi Cacaius,
If you check the imagebase ([url:3m7wl8z0]http://www.romanarmy.com/Content/Imagebase/imagebase-main.asp?Selectie=3&select2=Legionary+officer&Submit=Submit[/url]), you'll see that on funerary sculpture, only hamata and squamata is attested, as far as they're in the imagebase, obviously.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

if the optio moved up quickly after thye centurion was killed on campaign it would be plausible that he would still wear his seg for the rest of the campaign, unless he took armour from the dead centurion, which I highly doubt.

[FlaviusCrispus]

Hi Cacaius,
If you check the imagebase ( http://www.romanarmy.com/Content/Imageb ... mit=Submit ), you'll see that on funerary sculpture, only hamata and squamata is attested, as far as they're in the imagebase, obviously.

Avete, Jasper, Cacaius et al:

The imagebase is a tremendous tool, but we have to be a little careful with tombstones. If we go by them, NOBODY ever wore a lorica segmentata, because I believe they are entirely absent on military tombstones. There are also a number of centurions depicted in their "civvies," i.e. with no armor, so we're free to speculate as to what form of armor they wore.

It seems reasonably clear that, in the first centuries BC and AD, Centurions tended to gravitate toward certain traditional forms of body protection, mainly hamata (mail) and squamata (scale). Dan Peterson further posits that some of the scale armor seen in tombstones is actually a composit form, plumata, in which scales are layered over mail (whew, talk about heavy!). However, very few centurion tombstones are recorded after the second half of the first century, and those that do show up tend either not to have sculptural images at all, or to depict the subject in civilian dress. Also, the major military monuments of the second century-- Trajan's Column and the Antoninine Column, do not seem to depict any "classic" centurions-- a curious omission, since they by all accounts formed the backbone of the Roman officer corps. It may be that centurions at this time adopted forms of armor more closely associated with Tribunes and Legates-- mainly, the short muscle cuirass. Also, there are a couple of figures on the Antonine column wearing lorica segmentatae, crested helmets and pteruges who can plausibly be interpreted as Centurions.

So, would a centurion wear a lorica segmentata? Perhaps, as noted above, for a few weeks or months after their promotion. But once he started receiving Centurion's pay (10 times that of a normal legionary!), he'd probably discard his old legionary kit fairly soon and replace it with something more gaudy and distinctive. Of course, this could also take the form of a beautifully made lorica seg (perhaps with brass-rimmed plates, inlaid bosses and hinges, etc.), but more likely tradition would have argued for traditional officer wear such as a well-made lorica squamata, plumata, hamata or a muscle cuirass. Whatever form of body armor he chose, he would almost certainly wear a subarmalis with a single or double kilt of fringed pteruges, and probably a row of semicircular lappets as well-- these seem to be universally attested, no matter what form of armor is worn. He would also probably wear greaves and a highly decorated belt. And he'd probably wear his sword on the left instead of right.

When I did my appearence as Centurion on "Conquest," I wore my Newstead lorica seg with a transverse-crested helmet. I had a lorica hamata, but it was rather moth-eaten and I couldn't see a centurion wearing it. For my regular Optio impression, I'll wear my Newstead with a subarmalis with lappets and nice fringed pteruges (I'm just now finishing that). I'm also working on a Caesarian-Augustan Centurio impression in which I'll wear the subarmalis with either a nicely made hamata or squamata (haven't decided which yet), plus greaves.

Sorry that's not more definitive, but once you get past the latter first century AD, when it comes to centurions you enter a rather foggy realm.

T. Flavius Crispus
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

[Praefectusclassis]

Hi Dave,
I realize the tombstones are not the Alpha and Omega of sources. (be an awful historian if I did), but it was asked if there was sculptural evidence...
Anyway, I do think there's one tombstone (at least I think it is) from Alba Iulia showing segmentata.
One more puzzling thing about these tombstones is that we assume these bigger, more complicated reliefs must have been expensive. Now how come only so very few centurions are among them? Vagaries of survival or did centurions go for something else completely?

[FlaviusCrispus]

<<Anyway, I do think there's one tombstone (at least I think it is) from Alba Iulia showing segmentata. >>

The Alba Iulia relief is not a tombstone (at least Mike Bishop doesn't think it is), but some other form of monument.

I now recall that the Osprey "Roman Legionary AD 161-284" book shows a 3rd century tombstone that seems to show a trooper wearing a lorica segmentata. The inscription was in Greek and named the deceased as a member of Caracalla's "Trojan guard," or something like that.

There's also this one:

[url:qhax7q63]http://www.romanarmy.com/Content/Imagebase/imagebase-show.asp?Selectie=5&Naaminvoer=diodorus&Inscrinvoer=&Litinvoer=&select1=Ala%20Afrorum&select2=Guard%20infantryman&select3=Alexandria&select4=Portrait&veranderdatum=&ID=73[/url]

...which I initially thought showed at least two or three soldiers (or the same guy in three different poses) wearing a lorica seg. However, Graham Sumner believes this shows a provincial police force member wearing a cloak wrapped in a distinctive way that sort of simulates the look of a lorica seg. I'm not sure about that, but neither am I sure any more we're looking at a lorica seg.

Anyway, some scholars have taken the dearth of lorica seg depictions on tombstones as meaning that the seg wasn't used as widely as Trajan's Column implies, but that only certain specialty troops were equipped with it. I personally doubt this greatly-- lorica segmentata fragments are VERY common finds throughout Europe, far too common for it to have been some seldom-used speciality armor. I rather think that the practice of soldiers being depicted wearing armor on their tombstones went into decline just as the lorica seg entered its most widespread use.

T. Flavius Crispus
Leg VI VPF
CA, USA[/url]

[Praefectusclassis]

Ah! Good, well, at least I stand corrected on the Alba Iulia stone. Saves me looking for one less tombstone.
That Diodorus sarcophagus is very much in need of a transcription and translation so we at least know what he was.