Was artillery used in the field?

[Felix]

The medieval crossbows with composite or steel prods also required equipment to pull the string: a goat's foot lever, a cranequin, or a winch with pulleys. All of these devices need to be figured into the complexity and cost of manufacture.

[Eleatic Guest]

Hello,

is there any evidence for the use of mobile stone-throwers in the field? Perhaps even wheel-based ones? Would it make sense to use stone projectiles against soft targets in the first place?

[D B Campbell]

For pseudo-Heron’s treatise there is amazing evidence! It is an archaeological find of tiny bronze kambestrion excavated in 1965 and still unknown to the western scholar community. One of these days I’ll send you the copy of paper about it and my correspondence with the person discovered it.

Greetings, Ildar.
Where can we find news of this 1965 discovery?

[Ron Andrea]

Some months ago Sander van Dorst wrote, "What is called Greek fire was only developed in Byzantine times."

Columbia University Press Encyclopedia reports, “Greek fire, a flammable composition believed to have consisted of sulfur, naphtha, and quicklime. Although known in antiquity, it was first employed on a large scale by the Byzantines. Bronze tubes that emitted jets of liquid fire were mounted on the prows of their galleys and on the walls of Constantinople. The Byzantines in 678 and again in 717–18 destroyed two Saracen fleets with Greek fire.â€

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Some months ago Sander van Dorst wrote

Is he still around????????

M.VIB.M.

[Praefectusclassis]

Nope

[D B Campbell]

Does anyone have a reference for military use of any sort of flammable liquid, not necessarily Greek Fire, prior to the Byzantines?

They seem just to have shot incendiary missiles or thrown flaming objects. But no siphons until Byzantine times (afaik).

[Ioannis]

At the siege of Delium in 424 BCE, the Thebans used fire-raisers against a palisade held by the Athenians. The fire-raiser was a cauldron of burning coal, sulphur and pitch attached to one end of a long wooden beam. The beam had been split and hollowed out, so that an iron tube could be fitted inside. The two halves were bound together, and the cauldron end was protected with iron plating. A bellows was fitted at the other end of the tube inside the beam to provide a forced draught to the fire in the cauldron. The beam was fixed to two wooden carts, so that the cauldron could be pushed up against the palisade. The bellows were operated at a distance to force flames from the cauldron to spread to the palisade.

Sources
[url:1e15e6qj]http://www.fofweb.com/Onfiles/Ancient/AncientDetail.asp?iPin=HLAG0352[/url]

[url:1e15e6qj]http://library.thinkquest.org/C0122667/greece/war.html[/url]

Peter Connolly, Greece and Rome at War, (MacDonald Phoebus Ltd., 1981)

[Ron Andrea]

Ioannis,

Thank you very much. That's just the type of information I sought.

I had heard that various fire apparatus were used prior to the Byzantines, but hadn't found anything.

[Ioannis]

You're welcome Ron!

[D B Campbell]

I had heard that various fire apparatus were used prior to the Byzantines, but hadn't found anything.

Be careful, Ron. This was very much a one-off, as far as we can tell.

Thucydides describes a machine which the Boeotians constructed to blow flames against the timber fortifications which the Athenians had thrown up at Delium late in 424 BC.
Note that it used bellows to blow the flames, and did not spray liquid fire.
(Source: Thuc. 4.100)

The same, or a similar, machine appears to have been present at Lecythus during the same winter.
(Source: Thuc. 4.115)

My sketch, which I prepared for Ancient Siege Warfare 546-146 BC, is based on the excellent interpretation of John Warry.
(Again note that -- in this interpretation -- there doesn't appear to have been any capability to direct the fire, like a flame-thrower.)

Sources
Peter Connolly, Greece and Rome at War, (MacDonald Phoebus Ltd., 1981)

Ioannis: I cannot see this device mentioned anywhere by Connolly. Am I looking in the wrong place? :?

[Ioannis]

Dear Duncan,

You're absolutely right. The device is not mentioned there. I only used it as a general reference for ancient warfare (that's why I should have written "Further Reading" instead of "Sources").

Sorry!

[P. Clodius Secundus]

Allow me to cite here our (with Aitor Iriarte) discussion on the old RAT:
The real field artillery was created only when the all-metal spring-frames have invented for arrow-shooters and, consequently, battle mass of these pieces of artillery was decreased, which allowed for mounting them on mobile carriage.

Ildar, is the above quote (no offense intended) based on historical source material, educated assumption, or a combination? My recent tests with a wooden framed catapult mounted in a reproduction carrus do not support this conclusion. My cart is not nearly as strong as would have been produced by a competent cart wright of any era, yet it has no trouble supporting Legio XXIVs wood-framed catapult. If battle mass was the pivotal factor the difference could have been made up by carrying less ammo. This is part of the eternal compromise faced by all military vehicle designers. If in-swingers are proved to have significantly longer range, and if iron-framed weapons were in-swingers (why else make a wider frame), then perhaps that is what made the idea of field artillery practical. Once they can out range enemy bows it would be safe to deploy such a technologically "expensive" system.
I am planning to make an iron-framed in-swinger to conduct further testing. Where can I get accurate, detailed plans for one that matches the ones on Trajan's Column? My goal is to eventually field a complete carroballista including mules and put all these theories to the test.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I had heard that various fire apparatus were used prior to the Byzantines, but hadn't found anything.

Be careful, Ron. This was very much a one-off, as far as we can tell.

Thucydides describes a machine which the Boeotians constructed to blow flames against the timber fortifications which the Athenians had thrown up at Delium late in 424 BC.
Note that it used bellows to blow the flames, and did not spray liquid fire.
(Source: Thuc. 4.100)

The same, or a similar, machine appears to have been present at Lecythus during the same winter.
(Source: Thuc. 4.115)

My sketch, which I prepared for Ancient Siege Warfare 546-146 BC, is based on the excellent interpretation of John Warry.
(Again note that -- in this interpretation -- there doesn't appear to have been any capability to direct the fire, like a flame-thrower.)

Sources
Peter Connolly, Greece and Rome at War, (MacDonald Phoebus Ltd., 1981)

Ioannis: I cannot see this device mentioned anywhere by Connolly. Am I looking in the wrong place? :?

But if you were to roll this up to a fortification, it would scare the crap out of anyone trying to defend it, if it didn't turn them into toast!

[D B Campbell]

My sketch, which I prepared for Ancient Siege Warfare 546-146 BC, is based on the excellent interpretation of John Warry.

May I take this opportunity to pay tribute to our colleague Paullus Scipio, who (I recently discovered) was the brains behind John Warry's interpretation.

But if you were to roll this up to a fortification, it would scare the crap out of anyone trying to defend it, if it didn't turn them into toast!

No argument, Byron!