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Shell shock syndrome?
#16
I don't know if you can really compare being shelled by 120 mm rounds, as apposed to rocks and bolts. I don't think it would have the same effect. While I agree that being under siege would certainly have it's psychological effects, I don't think they would be signifigant enough to cause anything post traumatic. <p>"Remember, pillage first....then burn."<BR>
- First guy over the wall
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#17
This is Herodotus's description of the battle at Marathon.<br>
What is described there is a case of hysterical blindness triggered by the extreme stress of battle.<br>
Epizelus got scared that day, so scared that maybe he froze and failed to save his companion at his side. So his brain decided it would quit seeing, although there was probably nothing wrong with his eyesight.<br>
It is a very common occurence in cases of major psychological trauma and can also cause paralysis.<br>
<br>
"There fell in this battle of Marathon, on the side of the barbarians, about six thousand and four hundred men; on that of the Athenians, one hundred and ninety-two. Such was the number of the slain on the one side and the other.<b> A strange prodigy likewise happened at this fight. Epizelus, the son of Cuphagoras, an Athenian, was in the thick of the fray, and behaving himself as a brave man should, when suddenly he was stricken with blindness, without blow of sword or dart; and this blindness continued thenceforth during the whole of his after life. The following is the account which he himself, as I have heard, gave of the matter: he said that a gigantic warrior, with a huge beard, which shaded all his shield, stood over against him; but the ghostly semblance passed him by, and slew the man at his side.</b> Such, as I understand, was the tale which Epizelus told. <p></p><i></i>
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#18
Did ol Epizelus tell of any POST battle stress? <p>"Remember, pillage first....then burn."<BR>
- First guy over the wall
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#19
Nope, he didn't.<br>
However my assumption is that PTSD did exist then, since the conditions triggering it (extreme stress, terror and so on..), existed in ancient battles.<br>
But what must not be forgotten is that at that time people were totally ignorant of psychiatry. For them, a nightmare wasn't PTSD, just a bad dream sent by the Gods. I suppose that helped somewhat. Performing religious rites was probably a very good medecine, as long as you truly believed.<br>
I suppose the first psychiatrists were those priests in that temple in Greece where people came to have dreams and have them analyzed.<br>
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#20
I agree the conditions existed, but was the soldier's mind the same then as it is now? Keep in mind the very principles of survival are completely different in this modern era of so-called peace, than it was 2000 years ago. These men were conditioned, both by society and the army to live in such a world where one lived and died by the sword. It is likely that their mental fortitude was better able to handle this type of stress. Although, without any written evidence, it is impossible to conclude it either way. Which is too bad.<br>
<p>"Remember, pillage first....then burn."<BR>
- First guy over the wall
</p><i></i>
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#21
Violent death and people being maimed will leave a mark on anyone who is not a complete psycotic.Today or two thousand years ago.I see people injured with sharp metal far to often in my line of work(maximum security prison)and,When it's a friend it is even more terrible.It would be my guess that anyone who could not find a way to cope with this with out suffering from some form of mental collapse probably would not be able to survive 25 years in the legions. <p></p><i></i>
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#22
The announcement that the US Department of Veterans Affairs has introduced new rule today, July 12, that aims to make it easier for veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) to get the support they need, is good news indeed.
( http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =128467680 )
The threads on this page present some fascinating insights, including quotes from Herodotus and Tacitus, which do seem to suggest ancient world soldiers suffered from PTSD (as distinct from shell shock) in varying intensities. One wonders whether the 'medici' and 'capsarii' of the Roman army ever noticed the symptoms and what they prescribed.
Lindsay Powell
[url:1j6646pm]http://www.Lindsay-Powell.com[/url] website
@Lindsay_Powell twitter
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#23
One of the causes--and maybe not the greatest--is the constant exposure to attack and death. While most literature focuses on the trenches of World War One and the jungles of Vietnam (not to mention the streets of some Iraqi or Afghan city), the ancients generally (though not always) tried to control their environment enough to give them men a break from exposure to sudden death. The Romans, famously, built well-fortified camps.

Another factor may been ordinary tiredness. Soldiers under constant bombardment or threat of ambush don't rest well. Many soldiers remember the bone-aching fatigue as much as the momentary horror of death and dismemberment. Combining the two must not be good for even the healthiest mends.

As Matthew suggests, some form of "combat fatigue" has probably existed as long as there have been standing armies, but it was treated as individual--or unit--cowardice and was usually "treated" with a blade in the back or a bullet in the head. I recall, but can give no citation for, a Roman unit being decimated (literally) for failure to attack.
"Fugit irreparabile tempus" (Irrecoverable time glides away) Virgil

Ron Andrea
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#24
Ave Fratres,

Just wanted to post my two denarii of thought on this.

One of the things that lessens the incidence of PTSD is a strong peer support group. In a modern sense it would be your squad and platoon mates and your first line leaders. A problem that existed in the US Army was that replacements would come and go and the coherence within the lowest levels was diluted. I would think that the Roman veteran would have known all of those around him for a Long Time! As it was pointed out , you signed on for 20 years. Unit dilution may have been a problem late in the empire. I think that then, as now , that the contubernium was the first level of support along with the first line of legionary leadership. Anything more was a province of the Gods ! Sort of an " You will be all right now lad, a sacrifice and dedication to ..(.....pick one, Jupiter, Mars, Fortuna or the local favorite ) and you and your mates will be all right". That coupled with discipline usually gets someone through the toughest times.

This has been an excellent series of posts, hope to see more on this!

Regards to all you veterans out there, although from a different era, "Those who have seen the elephant are never the same" could apply to our legionaries as well.

Regards from the Balkan Frontier, Arminius Primus aka Al


PS: We thought we had a grenade attack in the old bazaar today. But it was a bootleg can of scent that exploded due to the heat. Shrapnel everywhere, Lucky no major injuries, except the vendor, he took a nasty wound to the head. I guess Caveat Emptor applies to sellers as well.
ARMINIVS PRIMVS

MACEDONICA PRIMA

aka ( Al Fuerst)




FESTINA LENTE
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#25
Go safely Arminius Primus.
Lindsay Powell
[url:1j6646pm]http://www.Lindsay-Powell.com[/url] website
@Lindsay_Powell twitter
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#26
Update on my earlier post:

"The number of soldiers forced to leave the [US] Army solely because of a mental disorder has increased by 64% from 2005 to 2009 and accounts for one in nine medical discharges, according to Army statistics.
"Last year, 1,224 soldiers with a mental illness, such as post-traumatic stress disorder, received a medical discharge. That was an increase from 745 soldiers in 2005 or about 7% of medical discharges that year, according to personnel statistics provided to USA TODAY."

Source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2 ... sp=usat.me
Lindsay Powell
[url:1j6646pm]http://www.Lindsay-Powell.com[/url] website
@Lindsay_Powell twitter
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#27
I was talking with a modern soldier the other day, and he said that the numbers of people coming back from battle zones with psychological problems could well be partly attributable to much quicker and better medical treatment's being available right at the battle front (or almost). Instead of several hours to surgery, it's often just a few minutes. More survivors, some recovering from grievous injuries could add to the numbers of people who have troubles. Perhaps a greater percentage of the wounded simply died in times past, in other words, and the percentages are skewed for that reason. Just his conclusion.

Hats off, and thanks to all of you who have served to defend your homes and our collective way of life. Eyes open, heads down, that's a good start.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#28
A tentative addition to the discussion from a newbie, but one with some practical experience after 13 years in the British Army.

As mentioned above, a soldier's immediate formation are the mainstay of his well being and morale (his tent mates/section/troop) and this cannot have changed across the ages. He lives and breathes everything with these men and even the loss of one can be sustained in the companionship of his fellows - they all have the same loss and can share in the natural grieving process.

Hand to hand combat requires substantial imagination these days to understand the horrors (as we would perhaps call it; there are some grusome account of bayonet combat from more recent history), but for Roman - and earlier and later - soldiers it was the normal environment in which they lived. Civilian life could be just as brutal and death was a common occurrance. They also had the process of clearing the battlefield after an engagement and reclaiming the dead and wounded. My personal opinion is that the process of burying a colleague in an honourable and celebratory way allows closure and the knowledge that the same respectful obsequies will be afforded to oneself when one is killed. When the object of the combat is boiled down to its smallest form, the tent mates/section/troopers are fighting to protect themselves and their colleagues and as each small constituent part succeeds, a greater victory is achieved.

Modern warfare is far more immediate, disruptive and , more importantly, isolationist. It is all very well getting wounded soldiers out of the front line and away to medical care asap, but they are then dislocated from their organic support structure. His mates cannot visit him in hopsital if he has been airlifted 20km behind the front, and his new companions become all the other wounded and suffering around him - and it can be combat wounds, RTAs and (on many occassions) a bed next to someone who technically is "the enemy".

Isolation also occurs to those in armoured vehicles who have little interaction with their vehicle companions and modern research indicates that "space age" helmets with multifarious targetting equipment, monitors, information overload adds to a soldiers feeling of detachment and isolation - he is on his own surviving for himself and not for anyone else. This affects the lowest organisational groupings and begins to fracture the comaraderie required for the survival of good mental health.

PTSD in all its forms affects those who are detached immediately from their environment in which they have faced fear, apprehension, aggression, adrenalin; all things shared with colleagues and which makes it a valuable and necessary shared experience, and all things civilians and those at home cannot understand.

Another downside of modern warfare is the rapid removal from the battlefield due to air power (ie transport air craft). In May 2003, I was ordered home from Iraq at 0600 in the morning due to the immediate requirement to react to the declaration of the end of hostilities by President George Bush Jnr. At 0800 the next day I was sitting at home in Oxfordshire with a cup of tea being asked if I had had an "interesting" time by friends and neighbours...talk about isolation!!! LOL!

This couldn't happen in the ancient world as everything obviously took more time, but I wonder how many Veterans wanted to take their grant of land and live away from the heart of the fort and to fend for themselves after years of sharing every daily task with men who were their real family? I am sure their life expectancy was as short as modern veterans who are also cut adrift from their life support.

(Going to stop now as I am depressing myself LOL!!!)
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#29
Excellent input, Moi. Well stated.

I remember fighter aircraft pilots talking about the surreal isolation they felt (Vietnam era) from the fight. In air-to-air combat the opponent was a tiny, rapidly-moving dot--a plane form, not a person. Even when a friend or wingman was lost in combat, you hardly saw what happened. A flash and he was gone. Many simply didn't return from the mission.

The support of team mates before, during and after combat should not be underestimated.
"Fugit irreparabile tempus" (Irrecoverable time glides away) Virgil

Ron Andrea
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#30
Quote: Demetrius wrote: I was talking with a modern soldier the other day, and he said that the numbers of people coming back from battle zones with psychological problems could well be partly attributable to much quicker and better medical treatment's being available right at the battle front (or almost). Instead of several hours to surgery, it's often just a few minutes. More survivors, some recovering from grievous injuries could add to the numbers of people who have troubles. Perhaps a greater percentage of the wounded simply died in times past, in other words, and the percentages are skewed for that reason. Just his conclusion.

The gentleman makes a valid point David, I have read some disturbing statistics, there have been more para/quadriplegics (American) as a result of the conflict in Iraq than in World War II. Many are surviving injuries that in years past would have been fatal, this is attributed to the effectiveness of modern body armor and as stated, the availability of better and quicker medical treatment. Sadly, many are not recieving adequate treatment (physical and psychological) once stateside. It has been a few months since I read that article and I hope that these brave men and women are recieving the treatment that they so well deserve.
_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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