Hellenistic Armour

[Adventurous Artisan]

I am currently in charge of a research and recreation project to reconstruct the armour, clothing, and weapons of a Herodian soldier.  This will be a small part of a museum exhibit about Judea in the 1st centuries A.D./B.C.  We hope to dispel the myths that most folks have about "Israel in Jesus' time" and show the culture, land, and people, and material culture as they were (or as close as we can based on current knowledge).  Few things are as massively misunderstood by the public at large as the soldiers of the time, whether that be the native and foreign troops that served King Herod, or the Auxiliaries that garrisoned the later Province of Judea. Therefore, an important part of this exhibit will be to reconstruct the soldiers that, to some extent, bookended the life of Christ.

I am not an expert on the ancient world (most of my ancient research has been on the textiles of 1st century Israel) but I'm doing the best I can currently.  I started with the osprey book on the subject and, although helpful, I need to go further.  Knowing that Herod emulated, as much as possible, Hellenistic culture I have dug around here reading the threads on T&Y armours which have been no end of both confusing and illuminating.  But most of that has been focused on the Classical Period rather than the Hellenistic Period. I am currently looking into the bits of armour which have been found at Masada and may or may not be left over from Herodian stores.  

It's painfully hard to research the material culture of a country that refused to illustrate animate objects. Objects must either be found archeologically (precious little that i've found) or inferred from images made by surrounding/similar cultures.

I really need help...  My passion is to portray history in as accurate of a manner as possible and I really want these figures to be, as of the time they are made, completely spot on in every detail.  Especially around Christmas time (now as of this posting) most people's ideas of the 1st century come from whatever misconceptions they may have about "Jesus Times" or "Bible Times".  And this is my chance to do something about that.  

I want to do better than what I can do on my own and I know there are some world class scholars on here.  I don't have any academic qualifications, I'm just a craftsman with a passion for history.  I've got no ego, and I'll take whatever help you all can give me.

Levi

[Nathan Ross]

the soldiers of the time, whether that be the native and foreign troops that served King Herod, or the Auxiliaries that garrisoned the later Province of Judea.

After several discussions on this board on associated subjects, I strongly suspect that these were essentially the same men! There don't seem to have been any regular Roman troops based in Judea itself until the first auxiliary cohorts were transferred from Syria around AD44 or so.

Knowing that Herod emulated, as much as possible, Hellenistic culture I have dug around here reading the threads on T&Y armours...

My Hellenistic knowledge is virtually zero, but I would expect the tube and yoke cuirass might have died out by then? - mind you, it appears on the 2nd C BC Altar of Ahenobarbus worn by an officer, and formed the basis of the older style Roman mail cuirass, so who knows...

But in the decades before the Roman takeover, Herod's army would (I expect) have been strongly influenced by prevailing Roman styles - his troops were apparently organised under 'Roman' centurions, and many had fought alongside the Roman army - and so may well have closely resembled Roman soldiers of the day based in the eastern provinces. What they might have looked like is another question!

[Robert Vermaat]

Adventurous Artisan pid='349817' dateline='1576628269']I want to do better than what I can do on my own and I know there are some world class scholars on here.  [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I don't have any academic qualifications, I'm just a craftsman with a passion for history.  I've got no ego, and I'll take whatever help you all can give me.

I would say influences of Greek armours of the Seleucid period as well as influences of early Roman armour (which of course was once influenced by those very same Hellenistic armours?).

A few images I found may help?

   

   

   

[Nathan Ross]

influences of Greek armours of the Seleucid period as well as influences of early Roman armour

Yes, probably. I would think that, following the conquest of Jerusalem by Pompeius (and Herod) in 63BC, the area would have fallen into the military hegemony of the Romans, and the troops used by the Judean rulers would more likely have resembled Romans rather than Greeks. But there was probably a lot of blurring and crossover, and the differences might not be as neat as we tend to think.

These might be useful, by Guy Stiebel - I still like the graffito he presents during his lecture!

Military Equipment from Masada

"Also he armed him with a coat of mail": the armour in Roman Judaea (lecture, Greek and Roman Armour Conference, London 2015)

[Adventurous Artisan]

Nathan Ross

the soldiers of the time, whether that be the native and foreign troops that served King Herod, or the Auxiliaries that garrisoned the later Province of Judea.

After several discussions on this board on associated subjects, I strongly suspect that these were essentially the same men! There don't seem to have been any regular Roman troops based in Judea itself until the first auxiliary cohorts were transferred from Syria around AD44 or so.

Knowing that Herod emulated, as much as possible, Hellenistic culture I have dug around here reading the threads on T&Y armours...

My Hellenistic knowledge is virtually zero, but I would expect the tube and yoke cuirass might have died out by then? - mind you, it appears on the 2nd C BC Altar of Ahenobarbus worn by an officer, and formed the basis of the older style Roman mail cuirass, so who knows...

But in the decades before the Roman takeover, Herod's army would (I expect) have been strongly influenced by prevailing Roman styles - his troops were apparently organised under 'Roman' centurions, and many had fought alongside the Roman army - and so may well have closely resembled Roman soldiers of the day based in the eastern provinces. What they might have looked like is another question!



Yes, Cohors I - V Sebastenorum were (as far as I can find out) Herod's troops, just rolled into the Syrian auxiliary system.  I imagine that they may have been re-armed at some point in time, but I don't know.

I'm currently working on a book "The Armies of the Hasmonaeans and Herod: From Hellenistic to Roman Frameworks" by Israel Shatzman which should help to answer the question of how hellenised versus roman Herod's army likely was.

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influences of Greek armours of the Seleucid period as well as influences of early Roman armour

Yes, probably. I would think that, following the conquest of Jerusalem by Pompeius (and Herod) in 63BC, the area would have fallen into the military hegemony of the Romans, and the troops used by the Judean rulers would more likely have resembled Romans rather than Greeks. But there was probably a lot of blurring and crossover, and the differences might not be as neat as we tend to think.

These might be useful, by Guy Stiebel - I still like the graffito he presents during his lecture!

Military Equipment from Masada

"Also he armed him with a coat of mail": the armour in Roman Judaea (lecture, Greek and Roman Armour Conference, London 2015)

I'm looking at the stuff from Masada (precious little of it unfortunately) and a similar twined piece from Dura that looks like a leg guard.

[Dan Howard]

The twined piece from Dura is not a leg guard. It is a liner for a metal leg guard. It is obvious when you see the wear pattern. I'm petty sure that James' original report says that it is a greave liner. The Masada twined fragment could be from ptyruges but it is only speculation. It could just as likely be from a floor rug.

[Adventurous Artisan]

The twined piece from Dura is not a leg guard. It is a liner for a metal leg guard. It is obvious when you see the wear pattern. I'm petty sure that James' original report says that it is a greave liner. The Masada twined fragment could be from ptyruges but it is only speculation. It could just as likely be from a floor rug.

The Masada linen fragments numbered 16-1174 and 1181/2 has a selvage on both sides with a total width of 3.2 cm. That seems to me to be right about the right width for pteryges (maye shoulder ones) rather than part of a floor rug.

In "Fragments Of Linen From Masada, Israel – The Remnants Of Pteryges? – And Related Finds in Weft- and Warp- Twining Including Several Slings" by Hero Granger-Taylor, Granger-Taylor hypothesizes that it may have been a Greave proper rather than just a liner based on the cut on the knee which Granger-Taylor thought unlikely if it had only been used to line a piece of metal armour. I'd be interested in knowing more about the wear pattern and how that indicates use as a liner.

[Dan Howard]

This is from James "Final Report VII" (p. 129).

"Having examined the piece I am convinced that it is a greave liner rather than a defense in its own right; five millimeters of linen would not have been very effective. It makes far better sense as a shock absorber and anti-chafing device worn between the shin and a metal greave like 447. This explanation also accords well with the observed pattern of wear."

"Given its considerable height and the curved top edge, it is clear that it covered the knee and so was designed for use with a copper alloy or iron greave of the cavalry pattern discussed in relation to 447."

Anyone who looks at a decent photo of this and actually knows how armour works will not mistake it for a greave. Granger-Taylor is a textile expert and has no clue about armour.

[Crispianus]

Adventurous Artisan wrote:
"The Masada linen fragments numbered 16-1174 and 1181/2 has a selvage on both sides with a total width of 3.2 cm."


Believe it or not cloth bags (at least in Egypt during the first millenium AD) are pretty common so straps and other components could make up a good many finds, if I remember right theres an article on them in:
"Dress accessories of the 1st millennium AD from Egypt"
I got it from the library so dont have a copy at hand to check...

There's a good many everyday items you can make from cloth, so its worth a look just for a more balanced overview...

[Adventurous Artisan]

Believe it or not cloth bags (at least in Egypt during the first millenium AD) are pretty common so straps and other components could make up a good many finds, if I remember right theres an article on them in:
"Dress accessories of the 1st millennium AD from Egypt"
I got it from the library so dont have a copy at hand to check...

There's a good many everyday items you can make from cloth, so its worth a look just for a more balanced overview...

The sad thing is, a bag strap actually makes a lot of sense.

---

This is from James "Final Report VII" (p. 129).

"Having examined the piece I am convinced that it is a greave liner rather than a defense in its own right; five millimeters of linen would not have been very effective. It makes far better sense as a shock absorber and anti-chafing device worn between the shin and a metal greave like 447. This explanation also accords well with the observed pattern of wear."

"Given its considerable height and the curved top edge, it is clear that it covered the knee and so was designed for use with a copper alloy or iron greave of the cavalry pattern discussed in relation to 447."

Anyone who looks at a decent photo of this and actually knows how armour works will not mistake it for a greave. Granger-Taylor is a textile expert and has no clue about armour.

Thank you!  I didn't know what the thickness was.

[Adventurous Artisan]

Knowing that Herod emulated, as much as possible, Hellenistic culture I have dug around here reading the threads on T&Y armours...

My Hellenistic knowledge is virtually zero, but I would expect the tube and yoke cuirass might have died out by then? - mind you, it appears on the 2nd C BC Altar of Ahenobarbus worn by an officer, and formed the basis of the older style Roman mail cuirass, so who knows...

I also found this sculpture from the National Archaeological Museum of Athens (Inventory Number: 2715) which seems to depict tube and yoke armour as well.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ...t_(Athens)

[Feinman]

Knowing that Herod emulated, as much as possible, Hellenistic culture I have dug around here reading the threads on T&Y armours...

My Hellenistic knowledge is virtually zero, but I would expect the tube and yoke cuirass might have died out by then? - mind you, it appears on the 2nd C BC Altar of Ahenobarbus worn by an officer, and formed the basis of the older style Roman mail cuirass, so who knows...

I also found this sculpture from the National Archaeological Museum of Athens (Inventory Number: 2715) which seems to depict tube and yoke armour as well.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ...t_(Athens)

Here is a larger picture of the statue; you can see what are likely the warp cords protruding from the ends of the ptyreges as in other depictions:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/31068574@N05/31312487703/
It looks very much like the depictions on the Etruscan urns.

[Dan Howard]

Note that warp cords and tassles are an artefact of ALL early weaving. It is not an indication of a specific technique such as twining.

[Feinman]

Note that warp cords and tassles are an artefact of ALL early weaving. It is not an indication of a specific technique such as twining.

But the cords are quite thick and have a number of layers --and don't seem to represent a fringe --a fringe of ordinary yarns would be much less thick, and very delicate details are carefully carved into the sculpture. The ptyreges also seem to be encased in a cover, as the weave is not apparent further up the ptyreges. So, they could be evidence of twining --at least of unusually thick yarns being used. It also looks exactly like the twined armour I am working on. While it is impossible to prove, those cords are quite thick. A thin fringe would get mashed and torn away and not last long on a military item, I'd guess. It still might be some kind of fringe, but this detail seems to pop out of the ends of ptyreges very often.. Good to "see" you again Dan! I know we've discussed this stuff before :-)