Login

08-22-2002, 08:23 PM

I am reviewing on of the references kindly recommended to me by Sander called The Roman Art of War by C.M. Gilliver. Citing excerpts from Pseudo-Hyginus and Vegetius the author offers a different method of using the prefabricated Valli, the narrow waisted stakes carried by the legionaires to fortify their encampments. Rather than using them to form a fence along the camp ramparts Dr. Gilliver states that three valli would be attached together by tying them at the narrow waist into a giant caltrop. These caltrops would be placed in a row along the top of the turf rampart and in a second row on the enemy side of the ditch. 
 
On the face of it this would appear to be a much more logical and effective use of the valli. It seems that they would form a weak fence depending on the materiel excavated during the ditch digging and the actual length of the valli buried as well as forming an indifferent palisade due to the short length and small circumference of the stakes. It also seems that using them in the caltrop method gives more coverage for the given number of stakes, that is 3 stakes used to form a caltrop covers more rampart length than 3 stakes placed side by side. It would seem that even considering two rows of caltrops that 6 stakes of two caltrops placed one behind the other still cover more rampart length than 6 stakes places side by side. If the caltrops were tied together they would be even more effective since pulling on them by hand or by grappling hooks would merely rotate the caltrops closer, on the other hand the valli palisade would appear to be very vulnerable to being pulled down, moreso by grappling hook then by hand. 
 
Do any of the re-enactors here have field experience with the two methods that they can provide input on this issue?

**richsc** · 08-22-2002, 10:44 PM

We've been discussing this, and I think there are a couple of threads on it. I think the Antonine Guard did a recreation where they made a picket fence on top of a wall, tied together, and all I could think of was 'grappling hook' to tear the entire wall down. Depending upon how the caltrops were done, they could be torn down too pretty easily. 
There are a number of schematics for how these might have been done, and I've promised to do a website with all the variations RSN. 
I think you have to consider the order of march, and who was doing the wall construction, and how many stakes were available at what time of the construction, in addition to how they might have been placed. Remember, someone has to pull them out in the morning, and if that is the last thing the departing cohort does, where are the stakes for the lead cohort? and how many? Good logistical problem . Richard Campbell, Legio XX.
http://www.geocities.com/richsc53/studies/

08-23-2002, 12:04 AM

What's a caltrop...like those steel girder anti-tank barriers? "Only Trajan could go to Dacia." 
 
Magnus/Matt 
Optio 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"

**richsc** · 08-23-2002, 01:22 AM

Yes, three stakes joined at their middles to form a tripod, but with points. Usually thought of as small iron spikes, anti-cavalry, where the horses step on them. At Alesia, Caesar put in single hooked spikes that look anti-infantry, if you can imagine stepping on a large fish hook. Richard Campbell, Legio XX.
http://www.geocities.com/richsc53/studies/

08-23-2002, 01:54 PM

RichSC 
I agree that the method of creating the caltrop is key to how vulnerable it is to grappling hooks. If the caltrops are very rigid and connected securely to each other with rope than the use of grappling hooks would only roll the barrier closer to those pulling. If the caltrops are not rigid than the act of pulling on them may collapse the caltrops. 
 
Another advantage of this method is the relative ease in setting up and dismantling the caltrop barrier. No need to partially bury/hammer in the stakes, no immediate wear and tear from pounding the stakes in (which would also result in the need to re-sharpen each), and less long term wear and tear. 
 
The more I consider this the more I am convined that this is the method with which they were actually used. Perhaps Vegetius did get something right.

Muzzaguchi · 08-25-2002, 11:07 PM

Hi, 
 
I don't know if there is an artistic representation of such a caltrop fort. Certainly all the forts depicted that i have seen are of the 'old fashioned' pallisade type. 
 
I think one of the reviwers of Gilliver's book (JRS?) already discussed the foibles and advantages of this - or did I read that on an earlier thread? 
 
Cheers 
 
Muzzaguchi

**richsc** · 08-26-2002, 12:29 AM

I'll have to look for that. I think that the stakes would have been buried pointing straight out, and slightly up while the wall was being built: the beveled ends make them easier to pull out the next morning. The point would be to discourage cavalry and prevent the stakes being pulled out by hooks or the caltrops being knocked aside. Richard Campbell, Legio XX.
http://www.geocities.com/richsc53/studies/

Gashford · 08-26-2002, 11:11 AM

Before saying anything let me qualify that I am not an expert in this field and know only what I have had the chance to play with. 
 
Making three legged tripod and burying the bottom part about six to 12 inches makes them very difficult to pull out of the ground. But tough/loose soil might make this impossible. 
 
Also the grappling hook idea relies upon a number of things, too many problems, I think, to allow it to be a viable tactic in the face of a marching camp. 
 
It assumes that a vast number of men are able to have been armed with grappling hooks or similar device. Also we have to assume that these men armed with a vast amount of grappling hooks are willing to try and hook onto difficult targets to hit whilst coming under a barraige of missiles possibly including stone bullets, arrows, bolts, pilum, spears, rocks and anything else throwable. 
 
Perhaps, as with a lot of fortifications, the fortification was considered a deterant and not full proof. An unfortified marching camp could be easily ambushed, but with the added problems of embankments, trip hazards and missiles it would probably take a certified and cordinated attack to be successful with very heavy losses. 
 
Just a few thoughts on the matter based upon nothing but guess work and supposition. 
 
Yours 
 
Graham

08-26-2002, 02:12 PM

...of these type of marching camp stakes at some archeological site (perhaps Germany)? I vaguely recall reading an article about them and how they showed no evidence of being pounded into the earth. Perhaps that may confirm how they were used.

08-26-2002, 06:30 PM

Salue! 
 
Doesn't one of the historians talk about the baggage of the commanding officer being protected at night by a picket of stakes which are chained together by the cohort (?) in charge of protecting it that night? Can't remember where I read that, but I know its out there....perhaps someone who remembers more clearly that passage can relate the specific wording of the text.... 
 
Just curious, but assuming that only a single line of stakes were used, are we asssuming (is there evidence for...)those stakes were positioned straight up and then chained together, or at a 45 degree angle(sticking out from the rampart to impale people upon), and then bound together? The latter seems more of a deterent to me, as the former allows the enemy to rush up the slope of the rampart and attempt to 'belly up' to the soldiers there. Both the 3d tripod affect and the 45 degree stake affect would force the attacking enemy to slow down, not only breaking the momentum of a full out assault, but also pause the enemy in an extremely vulnerable position while they tried to undo the picket...most likely preventing them from attacking the Romans on the rampart in earnest, but not necessarily vice versa (since its far easier to look down and swing, then to try to hold your balance on a 60 degree slope, advance, hack down a barrier, look up, continue to advance, AND swing hard enough to kill something). The vertical picket would not provide any of this slowing benefit, in my opinion, save what the ditch and incline themselves provide. 
 
Having helped build an 80 foot long roman turf square wall fort(4 foot high walls, 50 degree slope, 2 foot ditch in front), I can honestly say that scaling such a beast in full armor is daunting enough, however, adding some sort of barrier 2/3 of the way up which forces you to pause turns the climb most perilous indeed when enemy soldiers are directly above you. Without such a barrier to try to work around, it is quite a bit easier to hide behind your shield and bull your way to the top....now whether you survive once you make it there is another story entirely. 
 
Uale! 
 
Britannicus Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/ugaiusaquiliusbritannicus.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Gaius Aquilius Britannicus</A> at: 8/26/02 8:51:29 pm

09-05-2002, 08:39 AM

The last posting by Britannicus is interesting, for some time now I had thought that the "length of chain" as mentioned by Josephus could be used to tie the stakes in a caltrop fashion. 
This would be easier than using a number of short lengths of rope (assuming the chain has at the end a sort of hook to "hook" on to one of the links) also the chain would be more resistant to cutting or damage in the event of an attack. 
As a re-enactor I also use the length of chain to secure my blanket roll to my marching pack. 
 
So I would also like to know if the quote could be substantiated.

Gashford · 09-05-2002, 09:12 AM

Sentius 
 
Do you use MSN? I would like to chat to you about something, you can reach me on [email protected] via MSN. 
 
Sorry to pinch the thread a second all 
 
Graham

09-05-2002, 01:20 PM

remember the childrens game of jacks? little blunt caltrops and a ball? 
 
now think of the caltrops being made of 4-5 foot stakes, sharpened at both ends, no matter if the caltrop gets pulled over by the rope and grapnel, its still a bunch of pointy bits sticking up 
 
 
the only way to move it is to stop, use both hands and pick it up, not something we wanna do with folks throwing javelins at you 
Dave

Matthew Amt · 09-05-2002, 01:24 PM

Avete! 
One problem with the stakes being chained together is that the word in Josephus which has been interpreted as "chain" probably means something else entirely. The word as it is does not exist elsewhere, so it seems to be a corruption of something else. 
 
Doesn't mean there were no chains, of course! Just that Josephus does not really mention them as part of a soldier's regular gear. I would also expect chains to leave marks on the wooden stakes eventually, while ropes or cords might not. Anything like that been turned up? 
 
I remember that mention of the palisade stakes that were found, too, 300 of them all together, but I don't remember the fort. Some were marked with a centurion's name (more than one name?). 
 
Valete, 
Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX

09-05-2002, 01:31 PM

One factor against the use of these as a palisade is that if they were designed for that method in mind they would have been made with a blunt end for pounding into the earth and wouldn't need sharpening after each use. If they were used as a palisade and sharpened again after installed there should be plenty of evidence. It seems to me that two side of the stake point would be sharpened more thatn the other two sides due to the proximity of the adjacent stakes. It could be very difficult to sharpen the front and rear faces while the stake was imbeded next to other stakes. If they were used as such it would mae more sense to have them pointing at the enemy at an angle (a barrier) rather than straight up as a palisade. The Romans probably used them as the caltrops while in camps meant to be occupied for longer periods they would cut additional wood for palisades.

Login
Username:
Password:	Lost Password?
	Remember me

Possibly Related Threads…
Thread		Author	Replies	Views	Last Post
	Late-roman marching/temporary Camp at Gellep	Simplex	1	117	12-27-2023, 05:22 PM Last Post: Nathan Ross
	Marching camp construction	Stug50	24	3,522	03-10-2019, 03:11 PM Last Post: Gunthamund Hasding
	Another marching camp excavating at Friedberg/Hassia(D)	Simplex	5	3,233	07-19-2017, 07:39 PM Last Post: Simplex