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**richsc** · 01-19-2004, 02:08 AM

News stories are reporting that Israeli rabbis are seeing permission to look through Vatican vaults for the menorah from the Arch of Titus, among other things. They seem to think there is a chance it's there. I've always heard that the Vatican has many documents and artifacts that they don't know about and are continually discovering, but this would be pretty fantastic. 
Would it be possible that something like this could have been preserved from the Goths and Vandals? If that were possible, you only wonder what else is stuffed away. 
In the sequence of time Rome was Christianized before the varioius sacks; could a Christian emperor (and were the first ones still Pontifex Maximus?) have put things away before the Goths etc got there? Legio XX 
Fortius Conamur

01-19-2004, 03:05 AM

Constantine was definitely pontifex maximus...I'm pretty sure this continued until the 370s or 380s, probably ended with Theodosius. 
 
I have little doubt that the Vatican has quite a few things stashed away down there that no one has any idea about. What I wouldn't give for full access to their vaults.

Goffredo · 01-19-2004, 08:41 AM

Well the goths (and vandals) were Arian Christian so I would think they were NOT that destructive towards the Roman church to actually sack and loot the Vatican. 
Does anyone know something on this specific topic? What was the behavior of the sacking gothic and vandalic armies towards the christian churches?

Flavius Promotus · 01-19-2004, 09:57 AM

I'm not sure, but as far as I know, the Menorah and other items from the looted temple in Jerusalem were indeed taken by the Vandals and moved to Carthage. 
After the conquest of North Africa, Belisar sent these items to Constantinople - they were then perhaps sent to Judaea ... and then my memory fails me. 
(or nothing more is known about them) 
 
Did the Persians capture them in the early 7th century ? 
Or the Arabs ? 
 
(Dr. Jones has still work to do

Jeroen Pelgrom · 01-19-2004, 10:37 AM

actually, the office of Pontifex Maximus is perhaps the one of the oldest surviving functions. The first one was king Numa Pompilius (about 700 BC). Emperor Gratian relinquished it in 382, and it was assumed by the Christian Bishops of Rome, the Popes, who hold it to this day (thatÃ‚Â´s a time span of about 53% of recorded human history!). 
 
see also this link: 
[url=http://www.hostkingdom.net/rome.html#Pontifex" target="top]www.hostkingdom.net/rome.html#Pontifex[/url] Volo anaticulam cumminosam meam!Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pelgr003>pelgr003</A> at: 1/19/04 11:41 am

**Robert Vermaat** · 01-19-2004, 01:16 PM

No no no, the Goths took it back in 410, then moved it to southern Gaul and then on to Spain, where it fell into Muslim hands in the 8th century. Their commander sent it back to Baghdad as a gift to his Khalifa, only to be killed for being too succesful. It has been in the vaults of the rulers of Iraq ever since. 
 
Those gentlemen should ask permission, not from the Pope, but from the US Government to question Mr Hussein..

01-19-2004, 10:41 PM

Actually, it was discovered in the Egyptian desert in the 1930s by an adventurer-archaeologist, a certain Dr. Jones, while he was searching for the Ark of the Covenant before the Nazis could get it. At last report, it disappeared into a gigantic government warehouse, where it is safe from discovery for at least another thousand years.

01-20-2004, 11:43 AM

Actually, if I recall, Mr. Jones did not discover the Menorah but the Ark of Covenant. 
Which by the way, very rapidly turned into a bright ray of light, then the credits appeared and the lights went back on in the theater. 
But never mind.. 
In fact, if the Arabs took it back to Bagdad, it was probably looted by the Mongols.. 
According to Gibbons some obscure but "haughty" Vandal took it in Rome and tried to bring it back to Africa, but his ship was lost in a storm, so the Menorah should be nowadays somewhere at the bottom of the Mediterranean sea. 
It could also be under that river bed Alaric is said to have used to hide the loot from the sack of Rome in 410. 
But I suspect that at some point during the last years of the Western Empire it was melted down for coinage.

Daniel S Peterson · 01-22-2004, 08:03 PM

Don't know if it is of any interest, but if you read Josephus, he makes the interesting remark that no one in his time knew what the mysterious heavenly creatures known as Cherubim looked like which were depicted on the Ark of the Covenant and decorated Solomon's temple. The answer is preserved on the Arch of Titus, for on the base of the menorah, a winged dragon can be seen. This also jives with Satan being called a Cherubim in the Old Testament and a Dragon in the New, implying they are one in the same. Why else would a dragon be portrayed on a piece of holy temple equipment? 
 
Dan

Jeroen Pelgrom · 01-23-2004, 08:46 AM

Quote:<hr>Why else would a dragon be portrayed on a piece of holy temple equipment?<hr> 
 
In Paradise Lost by John Milton, the fallen angels were transformed into "snakes" by God after the devil had seduced Adam and Eve into eating the appel. This could explain this. 
 
The Cherubim are the guardians of the fixed stars, keepers of celestial records, bestowers of knowledge. In the Talmud cherubim are equated with the order of wheels, also called ophanim. 
Chief rulers are Ophaniel, Rikbiel, Zophiel, and, before his fall, Satan. Volo anaticulam cumminosam meam!

Daniel S Peterson · 01-23-2004, 10:06 PM

Jeroen, 
I don't think there is any biblical evidence for Milton's speculations about angels turning into snakes. Nor would it make sense to put a 'fallen' angel on the Menorah. I have found a great deal of evidence however that suggests that all of the winged heavenly creatures in Biblical accounts are what people refer to today as 'dragons'. Some books, now no longer in modern Bibles (Enoch, Baruch, etc) specifically refer to 'dragons' in heaven. It is possible that the Cherubim-dragon effigies on Solomon's temple, ark of the covenant, and the menorah, are what led the Zorastrian Persians to believe that the Jewish God was a great dragon named Zohac. No angel in biblical accounts have wings, just these dragon-like creatures, the seraphim and cherubim. The wings on human like angels was a classical pagan addition. God is described riding a winged Cherubim dragon in II Samuel, which is more plausible than the Cupid-like Cherubs invented in medieval times from pagan classical models. 
Dan

Jeroen Pelgrom · 01-26-2004, 08:45 AM

wow, i must bow to your knowledge on the bible here Daniel. 
 
interesting though that angels in the bible donÃ‚Â´t have wings! IÃ‚Â´m surprised that books like the Enoch and Baruch place Ã‚Â´dragonsÃ‚Â´ in heaven. I always thought that dragons in christian europe were mostly regarded as evil. The link of Milton with fallen angels and "snakes" therefore seemed to fit that. 
Also interesting that dragons and angels are perhaps linked. Dante in the divine comedy (my favorite book!) indeed decribes angels like the Seraphim and Cherubims as powerfull beings (by knowledge the Seraphim had 3 pairs of wings!). 
(BTW, My favorite episode regarding Angels is when an Angel opens the door of the city of Dis (Canto IX, 25-36)) 
 
IÃ‚Â´ve always wondered why the mighty cherubim have been "degraded" to the cupid like beings. 
 
Do you have more info about this? Volo anaticulam cumminosam meam!

Daniel S Peterson · 01-28-2004, 07:35 PM

Jeroen, 
The past few years I have researched the phenomena of dragons as they relate to the Judaeo-Christian religions for a book which is nearly ready now. To answer your question, actually, the concept of dragons being particularly Evil is from later medieval times as people got progressively stupider, and more ignorant of original religious concepts. This has culminated with nutty fundamentalist Christians who think Constantine was a Satan worshiper because of his Draco standard. Like the Greeks,(and many, many other religions) the Hebrews identified dragons as servants to the Gods (ie. guarding golden fleece, hesperdies apples, garden of eden. etc), Also to punish people (Andromeda legend, Moses (almost swallowed but spewed out again), Jason also swallowed and spewed out, Jonah (yes, originally a dragon, not a fish, etc.) Dragons in the book of Psalms sing praises to God, St. Augustine commenting on their admirable qualities and magnificence, the highest servants of God, Seraphim are flying fiery serpents,ie dragons etc. The orginal concept of hell were great dragons in heaven that devoured sinners and/or their souls, and the cherubuim dragons are often shown guarding heaven in early Christian art, devouring the unworthy trying to gain entrance. 
Also recall that virtually every early Medieval cathredal in Europe had a frieze with sinners being pushed into the mouth of a great dragon, Leviathan, which will also devour the wicked on judgement day. 
In fact it was Dante's story that shifted the notion of hell being a devouring dragon (as Jesus also alludes to besides books like Baruch), to the undergound "cartoon hell" with the 
pitchfork wielding devil, (though Dante's devil was a little less comical). Incidentally, I have the ultimate Dante Book, "Illuminated Manuscripts of the Divine Comedy" from Princeton University Press. I believe it has virtually every medieval illustration on the subject. I think over 2000 images. I acquired it mainly for the interesting depictions of dragons. 
 
Dan

01-28-2004, 09:00 PM

How "early" did this concept of hell being inside the belly of a dragon first appear in Christian art/writings? Any specific dates attributable to the first appearance?

Jeroen Pelgrom · 01-29-2004, 10:51 AM

that is really interesting!. 
 
Indeed, i recall pictures of these sinners who were driven into the mouth of Hell, early as 9th century??? (wild guess) 
 
Illuminated Manuscripts of the Divine Comedy from Princeton University Press, hmm sounds great. 
I have the Dutch edition with every picture from Gustav DorÃƒÂ©. Volo anaticulam cumminosam meam!Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pelgr003>pelgr003</A> at: 1/29/04 11:56 am

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