Fiery Greek Hell?

[Nathan Ross]

On the History/Archeology board, Daniel S Peterson wrote that "The concept of a fiery hell did not exist in Jewish theology until Greek influence on the culture coming with the conquest of Judea..."<br>
<br>
Is this true? I thought that the Greek concept of Hades was more a place of oblivion that hellfire and torment, and was rather unstructured anyway before Virgil described it divided into different zones for different classes of dead souls (an idea which Dante later elaborated). In fact, most of the Greek concepts of the afterlife I've come across don't involve Hades at all; instead there's an assortment of notions, from Reincarnation (Pythagorus), complete entropy (Epicurus) or the Stoic idea of virtuous souls rising to the spheres of heaven somewhere. As far as I was aware, the idea of sinners being eternally punished after death is particularly Judeo-Christian.<br>
<br>
Could anyone enlighten me on this? <p></p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

Nathan,<br>
Prior to the conquest of Judea by Alexander the Great the only notion of Hell to the Jews was Sheol, no fire, just a precinct of heaven,(although sometimes said to be undergound) a quiet dreary place for the spirits of both good and bad.<br>
<br>
Greek Hell, Hades, Tartarus, etc. was under the earth. The Greek myths mention two "fiery" rivers in this underworld call Phlegethon, meaning "the flaming" and Pyriphlegthon, menaing "flaming with fire". Virgil mentions in the Aeneid, "after death, some ingrained evil remains, which must be purged by punishment through wind, water and fire.<br>
<br>
The notion of an actual Lake of Fire in Revelation seems to have been taken verbatim from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, for they describe the evil serpent-dragon Apep (who exactly like the serpent-dragon Satan, seeks to destroy men's souls), and who also like Satan, is bound in chains and cast into a lake of fire. Sometimes it even has the same seven heads. I suppose John never dreamed anyone would know where he got his ideas from, for in the 1st century AD, this was probably already a very ancient and rare book. They may actually be more common now through two centuries of Egyptian acrchaeology.<br>
<br>
We do not see the fiery hell which the Jews called Gehenna until the Greek period, and it was orignally reserved just for the gentiles.<br>
<br>
The earliest, perhaps most "authentic" mode of Jewish "divine punishment" of the wicked seems to be being devoured by his servant Cherub-dragons as both Moses and Jonah nearly were, and is the task of the Leviathan. This seems to have a parallel in the crocodile headed dragon/monster of the Egyptians who devour the souls of the wicked, and may be the "devouring worm" referred to by Jesus, (even the Jews used this word for dragons sometimes), though this is usually interpreted now to mean apparently small worms that supposedly gnaw on bodies as they writhe in a fiery hell.<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

Dan,<br>
<br>
When did the Greeks develop the idea of a fiery Hell? In the Odyssey, Homer presents the underworld as a dreary place where nothing happens and no light shines. Achilles advises Odysseus to have the fullest and richest life he can, because all he can expect afterwards is an eternity of sitting around being bored in the dark. Homer was taught to Greek 'schoolchildren' for centuries as a standard part of their education in how they should act and think when they came to take their places in society. When then, did they start to depart from the dank and lightless cellar of Homer in the direction of the firepit you say they gifted the Jews with?<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

Crispus,<br>
From the dictionary of Classical Mythology, the earliest Greek view, only a dark abyss..... then it says "in later times" place of damnation, wicked suffer endless torments (incl fire), etc. I cannot say exactly when, but Virgil alludes to the fiery hell in his Aeneid, and also Lucian, so it is definately pre-Jesus.<br>
<br>
It is possible the Greeks got their fiery Hell from the Persians, for they believe "molten metal flowed under the feet of sinners".<br>
<br>
But in any case it is clear that there is no mention of a fiery Hell until the 'Greek occupation period'. A divine Jewish pre-Greek punishment though was God's sending fiery flying serpents (dragons?), in some cases only to hurt, and others to consume sinners, (or in Moses and Jonah's case, spit them out again with a warning. This may be the true meaning to the "devouring worm that never dies", reference to Hell quotation of Jesus that may have been turned into "late Greek, Fiery Hell" for the benefit of these new converts, who may have been more comfortable with this notion. Several books since removed from the Bible also allude to the punishment of sinners was to be devoured by a 'dragons' that reside in heaven, which I believe are also the Cherubim and Seraphim creatures based on thier direct translation to "dragons" from the Greek. It will be explained in detail in my book.<br>
<br>
It seems the Greeks brought their demons to Judaea as well, for no one in the bible becomes possessed by them until then. There are very slight references to sacrifices being made to demons in the early books of the old testament, but no meniton of demon possession so popular in the New Testament. It was apparently a "Greek Thing". From a religious standpoint, Jesus acknowledged the 'authenticity' of the Old Testament, yet he was dead before the "New" was written. Would he have endorsed everything it says? Even with so many religious ideas that were more Pagan Greek than Jewish? Who can say? <br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<p></p><i></i>