[split] Phalanx warfare: use of the spear

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

You will notice that I am not accusing Matthews's book, since I haven't read it.
I am merely pointing out the sheer inability to use a Hoplite spear, however long and weighted, by any type of underarm grip in a tightly packed phalanx. Once the shields overlap, and we know that they did, there is no room for underhand use.
Once there is a man behind you who will may even put his shield on your back, there is no means to use a spear underhand.
I have even seen underhand held spears being pushed sideways, unable to point to the enemy in front, because the shield from behind pressed it!

I have seen reenactors using a spear underhand, but then only in 1m distance between the files. And then not with much success.

Your generalized comment about dismissing a reenactor because he's a reenactor and not a martial artist is also faulty. As if if you are a reenactor you cannot also be a martial artists, and as if martial artists are always justified to talk about any period fighting. Any martial artist reenactor I know vigorously supports the overhand grip in a phalanx. If Christian Cameron's account was still active here on RAT he would certainly contribute to this thread in favor of the overhand grip, and apparat from having one of the best archaic panoplies out there, he teaches medieval martial arts. In fact he teaches among others spear and rotella, an Italian round concave shield in roughly the size of an aspis without rim. Not surprisingly, spear and rotella according to the rennaissance manuals is fought overhand.

Still, it is the third time I'm inviting you to disregard the arguments posed in the second video I posted. Either you are imagining a much different phalanx than the one I do, or I can't see how underhand mechanics would work in the phalanx.

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Further reference to the 15th century manuals about round shield and spear: http://elegant-weapon.blogspot.gr/2016/0...n-and.html

From the article's text:

" Interestingly, in the first two of these pictures, Marozzo has his right foot forward, something that isn't really recommended by the bulk of his instruction on the matter, where he usually recommends the guard shown in the Spiedo illustration. Also in the first image of the Partisan and shield, he shows his fighter engaged in the underhand grip**, something that he doesn't even cover in his material, as it is all done using the overhand style shown in the classical image. At least this is what I am assuming, as both Marozzo and Manciolino instruct their students to hold the spear in the manner of casting it***.

I find these two Bolognese masters very interesting in how they describe their system. This is because I feel like there has always been a bit of a contentious attitude among historical presentations in popular culture and academic experts about how useful it is to use a spear in this manner. On the one hand, the Bolognese system is probably an attempt to "recreate" the older way of fighting just as much as we are trying the "recreate" their material now. However, these Bolognese men would have been skilled warriors. steeped in martial tradition, so if they decided that this is the best way to make a system of use out of the overhand grip, then I believe they would be quite qualified in doing so.

The basics for this system are quite simple:
The Rotella defends thrusts made above the waist, while returning single time thrusts of your own.
Thrusts delivered to your legs are defended with the shaft of the Partisan, but with the spearhead pointed to the ground.
If a spear is thrown at you, void your body and use the shaft of the Partisan to deflect, again with the spearhead pointed to the ground.
If you get into trouble and are having difficulty controlling your Partisan with one hand, grab the Partisan with the left hand, still strapped to the Rotella, and treat it like a regular spear; or let Rotella fall off of your arm, and again treat like a spear.
While not complicated, this system is actually pretty elegant, and I have to say that I am having a lot of fun playing with it. One of the things that using a Partisan in this manner does, is relieve a lot of the arm strain, for which some of the normal criticism on the overhand grip is directed. This is because the need to use the spear itself for defense on the legs brings the spear into a much more comfortable position. "

I remind that this is advice from people who actually fought in battle in this manner.