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[split] Phalanx warfare: use of the spear
why not? everything that is close to reality is a good test of stamina.
Jaroslav Jakubov
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(09-07-2016, 04:10 PM)JaM Wrote: why not? everything that is close to reality is a good test of stamina.

Because you have to stop and take the time to work your blade out of the target.  The point is that hitting a target repeatedly is NOT what hoplites did.  They mostly feinted and jabbed, and if they hit something they either hopefully disabled it and had time while it died to recover, hit it in a soft place and not too deep, which does not provide much resistance, or were lucky enough to pry their point free before being killed themselves.
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yet i think that would be much closer to actual reality than just swinging the spear into open air meeting no resistance at all..  Romans for example practiced sword fighting against wooden figurines, so i guess they did it for a reason..
Jaroslav Jakubov
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(09-07-2016, 04:32 PM)JaM Wrote: yet i think that would be much closer to actual reality than just swinging the spear into open air meeting no resistance at all..  Romans for example practiced sword fighting against wooden figurines, so i guess they did it for a reason..
 so that they had a target to hit, which is why I hit a hanging ball.  Not hitting something is actually more tiring than hitting something with a blunt tipped spear because the blunt tipped spear bounces back unnaturally helping you recover from a strike.  In jabbing the air or a light target, your arm has to rcover the weapon by pulling it back.  The whole thing about "meeting resistance" is nonsense if you try it, because if you are hitting full tilt and the spear is not being forced back through your grip on contact, what is called a failure of linkage, then you are not hitting hard enough.
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The style of armour is another indicator of overhand spear use. The tube and yoke armour seems specifically intended to provide a double layer of protection against a spear angled down from overhead.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Dan:  Tube and yoke armor if made from leather would be not that great at protecting against spear thrusts anyway ( do i remember it right - Dr Williams managed to penetrate  hardened leather with just 30 joules? ). Plus, with the weighted spear, based on Pauls gifs, actual trajectory of the spear doesn't have that distinct downward path.. so shoulder padding could be used as protection against any attack over the shield rim.

Also, i guess once shields are locked together in formation, you would be unable to rise it up to deflect projectiles, therefore shoulder doubling would be something that could provide some protection against missiles, i see no reason why they should be used just because of the spear thrusts.
Jaroslav Jakubov
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(09-08-2016, 05:02 PM)JaM Wrote: Dan:  Tube and yoke armor if made from leather would be not that great at protecting against spear thrusts anyway ( do i remember it right - Dr Williams managed to penetrate  hardened leather with just 30 joules? ). Plus, with the weighted spear, based on Pauls gifs, actual trajectory of the spear doesn't have that distinct downward path.. so shoulder padding could be used as protection against any attack over the shield rim.

Also, i guess once shields are locked together in formation, you would be unable to rise it up to deflect projectiles, therefore shoulder doubling would be something that could provide some protection against missiles, i see no reason why they should be used just because of the spear thrusts.

The protectiveness of leather is completely dependent on how sharp the weapon is.  With anything by a razor edge, the 5mm side I made my t-y out of was proof against javelins and my dory.  When I ground a razor edge on instead of the factory edge it went through disturbingly easily.  As you say though, the shoulder is one of the few places exposed when behind an aspis.  When flighting close-in, a helmet like a pilos will shed overhand strikes or stabs nicely, but they will be directed down to the shoulder, so having extra protection there is a benefit.
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but was it actually doubled? shoulder patches seem to be from a single piece, while they only overlap with the torso just on a small portion of upper chest.. Plus, those shoulder patches seems to be a bit smaller than those used on Roman Lorica Hamata.

Another thing is, that Tube and Yoke armor doesnt have sleeves like Hamata has, so if you stand in oblique order with the shoulder behind the shield you actually present a bit more open area on your chest, theoretically, a direct strike could just enter that uncovered space and go into the body unrestricted.
Jaroslav Jakubov
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(09-08-2016, 06:46 PM)JaM Wrote: but was it actually doubled? shoulder patches seem to be from a single piece, while they only overlap with the torso just on a small portion of upper chest.. Plus, those shoulder patches seems to be a bit smaller than those used on Roman Lorica Hamata.

Another thing is, that Tube and Yoke armor doesnt have sleeves like Hamata has, so if you stand in oblique order with the shoulder behind the shield you actually present a bit more open area on your chest, theoretically, a direct strike could just enter that uncovered space and go into the body unrestricted.

Hmmm... not sure where you got  the idea it was doubled.  I have never seen a t-y made that way.  They were often reinforced with scales though. (Oh I see Dan said doubled, that would be only at the chest level)

I am not sure about them being smaller than those on Hamata, but I don't see what you are saying about the sleeves making any difference in an oblique stance.  If you were turned the other way, then yes the T-Y presents more of an opening around the arm.
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Quote:Dan: Tube and yoke armor if made from leather would be not that great at protecting against spear thrusts anyway ( do i remember it right - Dr Williams managed to penetrate hardened leather with just 30 joules? )

Williams tested 5mm of cuirbouilli. On the battlefield, this armour was worn over the top of mail, not by itself. Standalone leather armour was multi layered and usually 1-2 cm thick.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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2cm thickness? that would make it quite heavy i suppose.. any tests been made against such armor?
Jaroslav Jakubov
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Quote:2cm thickness? that would make it quite heavy i suppose..

Which is why people went to the trouble and expense of using metal. Any other material that provides similar protection is considerably thicker and heavier.

Quote:any tests been made against such armor?

I can't think of any that have been published.

Quote:but was it actually doubled?

It is doubled on the upper chest, which, when in formation, seems to be vulnerable to a spear thrust angled from above.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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There are many 'hypothetical' comments being made here. Testing it by reconstruction can resolve many of them.

Here are some youtube videos which do just that, just for starters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtIPp-m69BY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZVs97QKH-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYv87dt0ixA

These and many others seem to prove that overarm delivers a more powerful blow and has many other advantages over underarm.

It should be pointed out that every spear-using culture on earth uses the 'overarm' technique.......
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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not just overarm technique...
Jaroslav Jakubov
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(09-15-2016, 07:45 AM)JaM Wrote: not just overarm technique...

Yes, Yes......the thread has already established, and had accepted, that 'spear fencing' can involve many techniques in different situations.....yada,yada.... but the overarm technique delivers the most powerful blows and is the one predominant in all cultures.......for the reasons put forward in the YouTube clips I posted, and many others besides.

My apologies, I have just realised that some of the videos I referred to have been posted before, on page 7  for example.....
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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