08-12-2016, 09:40 AM
Jaroslav wrote:
One thing though - Class I are not the richest guys out there.. Equestrians are. Per your numbers, there were around 12000 men in that group.
And 1,200 men in 509 BC. The Roman fiscal qualifications for the five property classes of the Servian constitution as explained by Dionysius and Livy is detailed below:
Dionysius Livy
Class I 100,000 asses 100,000 asses
Class II 75,000 asses 75,000 asses
Class III 50,000 asses 50,000 asses
Class IV 25,000 asses 25,000 asses
Class V 12,500 asses 11,000 asses
Except for a difference of 1,500 asses for Class V, both historians are in agreement. However, of interest, Cicero and Aulus Gellius state the fiscal value of the proletarii amounted to 1,500 asses, and for the capite censi 375 asses. The 1,500 asses as given for the proletarii are the minimum fiscal requirements for the proletarii, as is the 375 asses for the capite censi (Class VI). With the additional 1,500 asses, Livy’s figure of 11,000 asses for Class V approximates to Dionysius’ figure of 12,500 asses. This means that Livy has deducted the 1,500 asses belonging to the capite censi (Class VI), from Class V, possibly because he believed they were part of the proletarii. The maximum for Class VI was 1,500 asses and the minimum was 375 asses.
In the same manner, Dionysius, Gaius and Livy identify Class I with those rated at 100,000 asses or more, while Pliny, Festus and Aulus Gellius give the wealth of Class I at 125,000 asses. Unfortunately, some modern historians see this as a contradiction when in fact there is none. Pliny, Festus and Aulus Gellius are listing the maximum fiscal requirements for Class I, while Dionysius, Gaius and Livy are listing the minimum fiscal requirements for Class I.
Class I 125,000 asses to 100,000 asses
Class II 100,000 asses to 75,000 asses
Class III 75,000 asses to 50,000 asses
Class IV 50,000 asses to 25,000 asses
Class V 25,000 asses to 1,500 asses
Class VI 1,500 asses to 375 asses
With the equestrians belonging to Class I, I have no idea if they are the riches men in Class I, but there would be no reason to assume they were not the richest of Class I.
Jaroslav wrote:
Class I to me looks more like today's Upper Middle class of people - well suited with good job, not millionaires but practically a backbone of a society and economy.. In Roman times these would be the families with good prosperous farms.. practically guys who could lose the most if something went wrong and enemies would plunder the countryside, so makes sense they would get involved a lot more, than those who have nothing to lose.. which would explain why Class I is as big as Class II,III and IV combined.
If you look at my paper on the Roman tribes, each of the ten sections of a century represented one planet in the Pythagorean cosmos. Yep that is correct, the Pythagorean cosmos had 10 planets, because they had a planet called the counter-earth. Aristotle claimed the Pythagoreans invented the counter-earth in order for the Pythagorean cosmos to conform to the Pythagorean religion of numbers:
“If any of the phenomena of the heaven showed any disagreement with the sequence in numbers, they made the necessary addition themselves, and tried to fill up any gap, in order to make their system as a whole agree with the numbers. Thus, considering the number ten to be a perfect number, and seeing the number of the moving spheres shown by observation to be nine only…they straightway added to them in their doctrine of the counter-earth, which they supposed to move counter to the earth and so to be invisible to the inhabitants of the earth.”
The biggest shake up of the Pythagorean system was when the Romans removed the counter earth from the system, when it was found the counter earth did not exist. This had a major impact on the legion and is the reason why there is only 600 triarii. This may come as a bit of a surprise, but the tribal century was reduced to 90 men, and the loss occurred with the triarii. So for awhile, when needed, the Romans levied additional triarii from the proletarii. The evidence I have is the Romans learnt about the non existence of the counter-earth from the Carthaginians, something I find hilarious.
One thing though - Class I are not the richest guys out there.. Equestrians are. Per your numbers, there were around 12000 men in that group.
And 1,200 men in 509 BC. The Roman fiscal qualifications for the five property classes of the Servian constitution as explained by Dionysius and Livy is detailed below:
Dionysius Livy
Class I 100,000 asses 100,000 asses
Class II 75,000 asses 75,000 asses
Class III 50,000 asses 50,000 asses
Class IV 25,000 asses 25,000 asses
Class V 12,500 asses 11,000 asses
Except for a difference of 1,500 asses for Class V, both historians are in agreement. However, of interest, Cicero and Aulus Gellius state the fiscal value of the proletarii amounted to 1,500 asses, and for the capite censi 375 asses. The 1,500 asses as given for the proletarii are the minimum fiscal requirements for the proletarii, as is the 375 asses for the capite censi (Class VI). With the additional 1,500 asses, Livy’s figure of 11,000 asses for Class V approximates to Dionysius’ figure of 12,500 asses. This means that Livy has deducted the 1,500 asses belonging to the capite censi (Class VI), from Class V, possibly because he believed they were part of the proletarii. The maximum for Class VI was 1,500 asses and the minimum was 375 asses.
In the same manner, Dionysius, Gaius and Livy identify Class I with those rated at 100,000 asses or more, while Pliny, Festus and Aulus Gellius give the wealth of Class I at 125,000 asses. Unfortunately, some modern historians see this as a contradiction when in fact there is none. Pliny, Festus and Aulus Gellius are listing the maximum fiscal requirements for Class I, while Dionysius, Gaius and Livy are listing the minimum fiscal requirements for Class I.
Class I 125,000 asses to 100,000 asses
Class II 100,000 asses to 75,000 asses
Class III 75,000 asses to 50,000 asses
Class IV 50,000 asses to 25,000 asses
Class V 25,000 asses to 1,500 asses
Class VI 1,500 asses to 375 asses
With the equestrians belonging to Class I, I have no idea if they are the riches men in Class I, but there would be no reason to assume they were not the richest of Class I.
Jaroslav wrote:
Class I to me looks more like today's Upper Middle class of people - well suited with good job, not millionaires but practically a backbone of a society and economy.. In Roman times these would be the families with good prosperous farms.. practically guys who could lose the most if something went wrong and enemies would plunder the countryside, so makes sense they would get involved a lot more, than those who have nothing to lose.. which would explain why Class I is as big as Class II,III and IV combined.
If you look at my paper on the Roman tribes, each of the ten sections of a century represented one planet in the Pythagorean cosmos. Yep that is correct, the Pythagorean cosmos had 10 planets, because they had a planet called the counter-earth. Aristotle claimed the Pythagoreans invented the counter-earth in order for the Pythagorean cosmos to conform to the Pythagorean religion of numbers:
“If any of the phenomena of the heaven showed any disagreement with the sequence in numbers, they made the necessary addition themselves, and tried to fill up any gap, in order to make their system as a whole agree with the numbers. Thus, considering the number ten to be a perfect number, and seeing the number of the moving spheres shown by observation to be nine only…they straightway added to them in their doctrine of the counter-earth, which they supposed to move counter to the earth and so to be invisible to the inhabitants of the earth.”
The biggest shake up of the Pythagorean system was when the Romans removed the counter earth from the system, when it was found the counter earth did not exist. This had a major impact on the legion and is the reason why there is only 600 triarii. This may come as a bit of a surprise, but the tribal century was reduced to 90 men, and the loss occurred with the triarii. So for awhile, when needed, the Romans levied additional triarii from the proletarii. The evidence I have is the Romans learnt about the non existence of the counter-earth from the Carthaginians, something I find hilarious.
