Stillfried Lorica Segmentata

[Daniel S Peterson]

Mike, regarding the shield suspension idea, remember that these are not intended to hang as "dead weight". At all times the shield is still be carried in hand, this is necessary to keep it aligned with the body. The strap just takes off some of the weight, making it more bearable. I didn't like Marcus's "backback" method of carrying the scutum as Trajans column, Adamaklesi, etc show the shield in hand at the body's side. Since the shield isn't dead weight, the hook on the Stillfried is quite adequate for the job. Other than just being so awkwardly high, I have reservations about these supporting the balteus, due to the sloping design of the cuirass. It will hang well enough on the hook, but sag everywhere else. When the balteus sits at the bottom lame of a segmented cuirass, if it is properly fitting, the hips protude, and the belt has some support. It is possible that there may have been a "second belt" high on the thorax, much like the wide belt seen on this spot on later Roman muscle cuirasses. ( Of course if you don't believe in muscle cuirasses used in the later Roman Army, it is a mute point. I believe there is too much pictorial evidence to dismiss them, including the otherwise normally accepted provincial tombsones.) More than decoration, I believe this upper thorax strap served much like the extra surcincle (sic) on a saddle, offering an extra method to secure the cuirass if the normal pins or buckles failed. The same would be true with a substantial extra strap employed on the upper thorax of the Stillfried armors. Of course there is no evidence of such a strap, or such a belt positioning on any pictorial evidence of a laminated cuirass, and I tend to think the shield suspension is the most plausible answer. Try something like the 160 km Nijmegen march with a scutum and I'm sure you will agree.<br>
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Matt, glad someone understands what I was getting at reference the positioning of the exit holes. It becomes even more clear if you put a surplus foam museum dummy in a cuirass and try "killing" it with a pilum, through the front overlap of the armor. The groups of puncture exits lie in remarkably the same place as the Stillfried punctures, simply too close to be coincidental.<br>
It is a good point about why not stab in an unprotected area instead, but it may have been a psychological thing with the attacker, perhaps frustrated by the armor protection that the Roman enemy normally enjoyed, but now didn't in this final circumstance.<br>
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By "toy pila" this is reference to many of you stateside guys "faking it" by attaching seperately made pyramidal points to your hardware store shanks...... okay, we did this too at first. But the point is, when all you have are relatively fragile, jerri-rigged pila, there is a reluctance to risk "breaking" them in real armor piercing experiments. Holger Von Gravert wanted to try throwing a forged head pila in a tree in my yard once, and although only with moderate force, it impacted so securely that it could only be removed by cutting it out.<br>
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[Matthew Amt]

Dan Peterson writes:<br>
"By "toy pila" this is reference to many of you stateside guys "faking it" by attaching seperately made pyramidal points to your hardware store shanks...... okay, we did this too at first. But the point is, when all you have are relatively fragile, jerri-rigged pila, there is a reluctance to risk "breaking" them in real armor piercing experiments."<br>
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Hadn't heard of any of these in the US, except for folks who bought the Museum Replicas "square pilum" (Ack! Unclean!). Not to be saying that such things don't exist, of course. Almost all of our pilum heads in Legio XX are hand-forged in a single piece, mounted on one-piece hand-made ash shafts. THAT'S why we don't like to throw them too often, cuz the metal costs 40 to 50 bucks and the wood is another 20 or more! And it was just darn hard to get these for years. So we took to making "cheapy chuckers" from simple steel rod with a point banged into the end, stuck into a stick from a handy trash pile. Zero cost, they work, they break, we don't cry. But we try to keep them out of close scrutiny by the public!<br>
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By the way, just got contacted by another blacksmith who wants to sell pilum heads and sword blades, so I'll chat him up, make sure his stuff is good, and pass the word around. As we get more good forged pila, we'll be more likely to throw them at things. But then we'll have to find someone willing to sacrifice his lorica... ("Hey, Lucius, stand over there!")<br>
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Vale,<br>
Matthew/Quintus<br>
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PS: Are we off-topic, here? <p></p><i></i>

[JRSCline]

I'm afraid so! Let's steer back to the Stillfried lorica, please...<br>
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Cheers,<br>
J. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Yes. Let's do that.<br>
The shield suspension idea would work even better with a bra type harness. Didn't Junkelmann tried something like that?<br>
I think that on the march they didn't hold the shield by the grip. Their left hand was free and the shield hung somewhere from a strap, quite high up so as not to impede walking.<br>
...Those little hooks are real buggers, however, because the officer's sash explanation figures too. Although an officer in segmentata woiuld be a first. <p></p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

Antoninus,<br>
When we did the 40 km a day Nijmegen march we did not want to go with the Junkelmann "backpack" method, because all sculptural evidence suggest the shield was carried in the hand during the march, not on the back like Marcus did. As I mentioned earlier on this thread, the Stillfried hooks would work wonderfully in this capacity, and allow you to change hands when one arm tired, as the hooks are on both sides. I really think this makes the most sense of them. Dan <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Dan, carrying one of these things by the handle for forty kilometers is very coureageous of you. You know better than I about the sculptural evidence, and I didn't walk much carrying a scutum, although I tried.<br>
After a couple of miles I began to think very hard about gloves and a padding on the inside of the umbo..<br>
And cnemides..<br>
However I did a lot of walking, meaning I went to distant places on foot with a backpack. And I cannot imagine myself walking for more than a mile without at least one of my hands free, if only to chase a fly, wipe sweat off my face, take my canteen to drink and so on..<br>
I've worn the whole equipment and it's magnificently suited for walking. The legs are totally free and after wearing a simple tunic you begin to wonder why we wear pants..<br>
Those shields had leather covers on the march --add another three pounds-- and I cannot imagine they didn't have a system attached to the cover allowing them to keep the left hand free on the march, since the right one was taken by the fork carrying the pack.<br>
I cannot think of any sculptural evidence showing roman soldiers on the march with their shield covers on. For obvious reasons. I know of one stela (Aureolus?) showing a legionary carrying a sub-rectangular scutum on his back though..<br>
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