Phalanx warfare: Closing of the ranks

[Paullus Scipio]

Dan Howard wrote:
“That is not leather armour. The metal plates provide the protection, not the backing. AFAIK we have no Graeco-Hellenistic examples of either leather or linen armour at this point in time.”....

.... “I have no idea what your point is. Leather, scale, mail, plate (and possibly cloth) armours were all made in the tube and yoke style. It was the fashion of the time to make all armour in this style. Armour consisting of overlapping metal scales on a leather foundation is not leather armour, it is metal armour.”

Well, that depends. It’s all a matter of definition. To my mind ‘metal’ armour means armour made entirely of metal, such as the bronze ‘Bell’ cuirass, the later ‘muscled’ cuirass, mail, and lamellar armour, or the later so-called Roman ‘lorica segmentata’. Nor do I agree that it is just the metal that provides the protection. Bovine hides are generally around 5 mm thick, and so a ‘spolas’ would be also ( though a ‘double breasted’ one would provide 10 mm of frontal protection). That Thracian cavalry corselet is a Tube-and-Yoke one made from 3 mm thick leather, re-inforced with scales ( in this case all over, making it the most expensive kind). This is a well known armour principle c.f. ‘face hardened steel’ used on armoured vehicles. The ‘hardened’ material provides the initial resistance, backed up by the bulk of the defence, here the leather, just like on armoured vehicles with ‘face hardened’ steel armour. It allows provision of lighter, stronger armour to provide overall equivalent protection ( here 2mm of leather thickness –almost half – has been replaced by ‘harder’ metal scales.)
Moreover, how do you define leather corselets that have only ‘partial’ scale reinforcement?
The commonest term used for such armour is ‘composite’ armour, in this instance scale reinforced leather.
As  to Graeco-Hellenistic examples, that ‘Thracian’ corselet is part of a Greek panoply ( note the helmet) and is therefore most likely an ‘export’ panoply made in Greece. Greek Tube-and-Yoke armour is unlikely to turn up in a Greek context for reasons I have explained several times.

Dan Howard wrote:
“There is no point asking these questions. Why not ask why they used the tube and yoke style in the first place? Often the answer is something like: "because that is how we always have done it" or "because that is how our cultural superiors do it". Fashion has a far greater influence over armour design than many want to admit. Fashion rarely has much to do with efficiency or common sense. “

I don’t believe fashion had anything to do with it in this instance. The Tube-and- Yoke design is simple, practical and allows thick materials to be used, and it had a long history, over 3,500 years, and very similar designs were still being made in Japan (O Yoroi style) in the Middle ages.......                           
 
With regard to the Tube-and-Yoke style, it is very simple, and as you say could be made in a number of materials. The oldest example I know of is bronze-age, around 3,500 years old from Siberia, and made of bone ( see attached, from another RAT thread)

Dan Howard wrote:
 “I give both if these ideas exactly the same respect - none. Leather armour is 1-2 cm thick. Leather backing for scale armour is a few mm. The function of the leather in both of these instances is completely unrelated. The same difference can be noted when comparing linen armour and linen backing. You can't take a leather spolas and retro-fit it with metal scales. You need to design it to take scales from the start - the manner of construction is completely different.”

I don’t agree with this. Bovine leather is typically 5mm [3/16 inch] thick on average, but not of uniform thickness. Certainly ‘triple’ or ‘quadruple’ layer hide is almost arrow proof, but would be very difficult to wear, as well as expensive to make ( Hope you aren’t implying ‘glued’ layers of leather, Dan ! LOL!  Joke: I know from your depth of expertise that you know better). I also agree with Paul B. That you can indeed retro-fit a 5 mm thick leather ‘spolas’ with scales – the only difficulty is sewing them onto that thickness of leather.
Certainly a purely ‘scale’ cuirass ( such as some Scythian examples) might have backing leather of only 1 mm or so thick, which is what I presume you are referring to...

Paul B wrote:
“On another note, this image has always bothered me.  It is not a T-Y, yet its material is thick enough to be cut into Pteryges.  It is patterned in the manner we see many textile garments.  Surely this could be a "linothorax".  Which would mean that there was a linen armor, but it was not, or at least not always patterned as a T-Y. “

Dan Howard wrote:
“These things aren't photos. Trying to interpret these images as anything more than "looks like some kind of armour" is not a productive use of time.”

I’d agree with Dan here. Iconography must be taken with a good deal of salt, unless supported by literature and/or archaeology, and a good example is Greek helmets. In iconography and vase painting  in particular, down to the 5 c they are invariably depicted with crests ( copied by re-enactors everywhere) but the subject matter is always mythological – Gods and Heroes – who come dressed in the finest gear. It is only after the Persian Wars (once the Men of Marathon were elected to the Pantheon of Heroes) that we see a more realistic picture; crestless helmets and often no body armour at all. In archaeology, we have thousands of examples of Greek helmets, yet very, very few of them show any trace of helmet crest fittings ( though these of necessity must support removable crests). In fact it is possible that as at Rome, only officers had crests ( we are told, for example, that the Athenian commander wore a helmet displaying Athena’s triple crest). There is a RAT thread on this subject.....Ground Hog Day !

Paul B wrote:
“Speaking of flexibility, I have never seen this fully explained, see attached. “

See above: This is an obvious ‘mythological’ piece , and I would put the armour down to ‘artistic licence’, or a fantasy piece, since we have  ( IIRC) no other examples of this armour................

Creon 01 wrote:
“You are not still claiming all those "leather" finds at Archontiko are accurate are you? I thought all those newspaper articles were proven incorrect? “
And what do you base this ‘thought’ on ? You really must start supporting your often wild assertions with sources/evidence. So far as I know, full reports on the Archontiko excavations, which ceased in 2010 due to lack of funding, have not been produced by the Chrysostomous (husband and wife). Given that something like a thousand graves were excavated over many years, and given the general slowness of Greek Archaeology ( due to rights vesting in the excavators), I wouldn’t expect anything soon! I’ve been looking for further information since 2007, and those several news reports must have been based on something, probably a verbal briefing at a press conference.

If you know otherwise, ( and I suspect you do not not) please share. But leaving aside Archontiko, there are still hundreds of references to adipose organic material (i.e. leather) found with what are obviously Greek metal corselet fittings, and other parts of Greek panoplies , helmets and greaves,  ( see attached 5 C example from the same Golyamata Mogila tumulus as the intact 4C example.) and dozens if not hundreds of examples of leather/scale composite corselets in museums all over the world. As one example, the Ashmolean museum, Britain,has a shoulder piece of composite leather/scale armour  found in the Scythian Grave VI, Volkovtsy tumulus in 1885. It came from a Tube-and-Yoke corselet, which Lyutsenko reported as ‘a leather cuirass’. And there are hundreds of other examples.
The bulk of examples, such as the Thracian intact example I posted earlier are of course in East European or Russian museums.....
 
Dan Howard wrote:
“Yep. I'd love to see a dig report of Greco-Hellenistic leather armour. Apparently there was no organic material at all recovered from Archontiko. So we still have just as much physical evidence for leather armour as we have for linen - none........ “

Whether or not there was organic material recovered from Archontiko is an open question, which will likely have to await publication of reports. Presumably your first sentence refers to “in a Greek context”. Well, that is highly unlikely for reasons I have repeatedly stated. But that doesn’t mean we don’t have examples of Greek-made corselets. Greek panoplies were in big demand by Royalty, nobles and others who could afford it in neighbouring countries such as Macedon, Thrace and Scythia. Greek panoplies were exported as early as the late 7 c and 6 C BC. Greek corselet fittings abound e.g. The Thracian King Seuthes III had a Greek panoply – helmet, greaves and leather body armour which was obviously made in Greece, probably Athens ( the corselet was decorated on the breast with a bust of Pallas Athena. Greek made metalwork is easily distinguishable from native Thracian or Scythian metalwork ). There is plenty of evidence for Greek made leather armour ( see corselet reconstruction above – I have some doubts about the actual reconstruction, but clearly the fittings came from a Greek workshop. There were also two gorgets in the find.)
I can't fulfill Dan's wish (Yet !! ), but in the meantime here is a photo of one of the Archontiko graves showing a hoplite panoply as it was found in situ, note Illyrian helmet, aspis, spear head etc......