Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Women Gladiators????
#1
So, I've read a couple of books that touched on this theme..... and I got conflicting ideas. One says that women gladiators were never matched up with anything else, except other women. The other book says, that in trying to out-do other spectacles they have as an example a woman fighting a dwarf. What's the real deal with these figures of history that we don't hear that much about? Also, the women that fought in the arena.... were they slaves and criminals or were they like their male counterparts, able to enter from citizenship/free person? Did they ever participate in the beast hunts? Just curious.....<br>
<br>
Vale,<br>
Quintus Peltrasius <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#2
And yet I find that in Petronius' Satyricon he mentions a female chariot fighter competing against men. Then, Tacitus in his Annals writes about Nero in 63 AD staging "a number of gladiatorial shows, equal in magnificence to their predecessors, though more women of rank and senators disgraced themselves in the arena".<br>
<br>
Ack!!!! So, much conflicting info...... <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#3
Try the archaeology. A recent dig in Southwark unearthed a (partial) female skeleton with accoutrements which suggested she may well have been a gladiatrix. I'm afraid I've no firm citation or reference to offer for this; the location was to the north side of Great Dover Street, Bermondsey (London, UK) and the dig was some time between 1999 & 2001. The burial was tentatively dated (when last I heard) to between 200-300 AD. Interestingly, the site appeared to reflect a low social status, yet reasonable wealth. Sorry I can't give more than this - but try the Museum of the city of London, who should be able to link you to the archaeological reports. Vale. <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#4
The identification of the woman in the recent grave find was a classic of leaping to conclusions. There were a couple oil lamps decorated with gladiators in her grave, so someone assumed that she must have been one!! By that logic, MOST of the residents of the Empire were gladiators, since that's one of the most common motifs on original oil lamps, not to mention pots, wall paintings and mosaics, knife handles, game pieces, you name it... Think of how many of your friends could be identified as football players simply because of a couple items of their clothing.<br>
<br>
Oh, apparently they also thought this woman was Egyptian, because of some statuette of Isis or something. It couldn't POSSIBLY have just been something she bought or was given as a gift, eh? Amazing...<br>
<br>
WERE there woman gladiators? Yes! But it seems silly to conclude that the woman in this particular grave was one.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Matthew/Quintus <p></p><i></i>
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
Reply
#5
I dont think that the Museum of London really thought that she was a gladiator, but it didnt do them any harm from all the publicity [when a certain film was out too].<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Reply
#6
>re: Quintus et Vardulli<br>
<br>
Alas, poor Southwark Gladiatrix who wasn't... soon as I read your post I checked the reports and yes, the "evidence" was flimsy to non-existent. Are you really suggesting that the Museum of London possibly have put a spin on what they did(n't) really have??!<br>
<br>
"non contemnenda ea parva sine quibus magna constare non possunt"..... (in this case, omit the first "non"). <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#7
I suspect that's reading too much of a conspiracy, but the papers here as everywhere like to get hte most sensational version of events they can, even hte braord sheets wiht htis sort of interest story. No doubt it was complete wiht a reconstruction of what a female gladiator looked like and plenty of heavy interpretation of the facts. No doubt the words 'could' and 'possible' were worked in where they weren't too noticable.<br>
<br>
Museums are desperate for funding and any publicity is good publicity.Letting journalists write htis sort of nonsense can get htis sort of find half a page in the sunday times which is the biggest selling broadsheet at the weekend when people actually have the time, and reports of female gladiators are probably sensational enough to get coverage in the tabloids. Museums can't buy that, so providing no ones actually saying anything demonstrably wrong I suspect htey're quite happy <p><i>Unless the Persians fly away like birds, hide in the earth like mice, or leap into a lake like frogs, they will never see their homes again, but will die under our arrows</i></p><i></i>
In the name of heaven Catiline, how long do you propose to exploit our patience..
Reply
#8
"Jenny Hall, curator of early London history at the museum, estimated that there was a 70 percent chance this was a female gladiator."<br>
<br>
source<br>
www.abcnews.go.com/Sectio...00912.html<br>
<br>
<br>
museum is the Museum of London<br>
<br>
so they were a bit more certain than I thought <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#9
Also, Statius in a poem wrote about a gladiatoral event which included "Moors, women, and pygmies". I found out that they did participate as venatores, according to the writings Martial and Cassius Dio. Plus, I have a few references that state.....<br>
<br>
The crowds held an unbridled enthusiasm for bloody spectacles, and in particularly permissive periods, even some ladies of good society performed in the arena. As one account describes: "Mervia, bare-breasted and brandishing a skewer, chases a Tuscan wild boar around the arena."<br>
<br>
Anna Maria Liberati and Fafio Bourbon<br>
ANCIENT ROME<br>
HISTORY OF A CIVILIZATION THAT RULED THE WORLD<br>
1996 White Star S.r.l.<br>
<br>
".... and women and dwarves were also used."<br>
<br>
Leslie Adkins and Roy A. Adkins<br>
HANDBOOK TO LIFE IN ANCIENT ROME<br>
1994 Oxford University Press<br>
<br>
"A dwarf might be pitted against a woman."<br>
<br>
Moses Hadas<br>
IMPERIAL ROME<br>
1965 Time Inc.<br>
<br>
Also, I totally agree with you Matt..... Just because an oil lamp was found depicting a gladiatoral scene doesn't mean that she WAS a gladiator. We have to remember that gladiatoral motif's were very popular decoration on many item (sculptures, carvings, household goods, etc....). But I am still looking for hard evidence (including written) that women were pitted against men and how they entered (slaves, POW's, or as freepersons). Sander, any good reading you can point me to??? Thanks everyone......<br>
<br>
Vale,<br>
Quintus Peltrasius <p>don't they say that "those who do not learn from history, are doomed to repeat it." Interesting, if we don't learn the true history (or the little details therein), then..... what have we learned????
</p><i></i>
Reply
#10
this any good?<br>
<br>
www.lothene.demon.co.uk/o...enrom.html<br>
<br>
<br>
also re London female gladiator. I think that the 'evidence' was a bit more than an oil lamp.<br>
<br>
re- slaves in the arena- I remember reading somewhere that during the 1st century AD slaves could only be sent to the arena if they were tried by law and condemned.<br>
slave owners were not alllowed to get rid of slaves by simply sending them to the arena. A number of laws were brought in esp. under Nero protecting slaves <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#11
Some are more certain, some less so. The report isn't yet published but the following site may be of interest:<br>
<br>
"David Connolly"<[email protected]><br>
<br>
For a more skeptical approach try:<br>
<br>
"Paul Barford"<[email protected]> (with whom I'm in complete agreement)<br>
<br>
By the way, Quintus, I'm also in complete agreement with you re: learning from history (how could I not be??) My point is that it's easy, very tempting and rather exciting to conflate such data by presenting it as evidence for this or that hypothesis. In this case, a Romano-British Gladiatrix. Any Gladiatrix at all would be brilliant enough... but this one's here and she's ours. I for one really hope she is... but nothing has been proven as yet. Maybe a similar burial will surface, with accoutrements or epigraphic evidence that'll make more sense of what was found here? Until then, I'll stay skeptical.<br>
<br>
While I'm posting.... can anyone give me an on-line source leading to the text of<br>
<br>
"A new roman gladiator find from Piddington, Northhants" (Roy Friendship-Taylor & Ralph Jackson) ?? Vale. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/udmadams.showPublicProfile?language=EN>dmadams</A> at: 1/6/02 7:59:58 pm<br></i>
Reply
#12
Hi,<br>
<br>
You might also like to turn your attention to the Book of Spectacles by Martial.<br>
<br>
Spectacles VI ad VIb make a sideways mention of women at the inaugral games of the Flavian Amphitheatre.<br>
<br>
I am currently writing a short essay on the subject of women gladiators that you might want to take a look at if you want. You can find it in my essays section at www.ludus.org.uk <br>
<br>
The difficulty of females gladiator information is that so little is truly known, people have to be seen to know the correct thing, simply saying we are not sure what this is does not tend to secure much corporate or otherwise funding. If you consider the length of time gladiators existed in the Republic and Empire and the area they covered we have dramatically little about them left us, then try and find detailed information about women fighters in that you can imagine the task is almost hopeless.<br>
<br>
I hope this helps in some small way.<br>
<br>
Yours<br>
<br>
Graham <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#13
According to Tacitus the first women gladiators appeared during Nero's reign in AD 63.<br>
Frankly, I'm not surprised. The man was definitely an artist...:LOL<br>
"That same year he gave gladiatorial spectacles as magnificent as the previous ones, but several women of high rank and senators degraded themselves by going down i to the arena" (Annals, XV,32)<br>
In Petrone's Satiricon, I remember a woman essedarius (fighting on a chariot).<br>
We don't have the bodies of women gladiators, but we have a stela today in the British Museum. It was found in Halicarnassus, in Turkey and represents two women, "Achilia" and "Amazon", bared headed but otherwise equipped with rectangular shield, arm guard in the case of one, and straight short sword. There may be cnemides too, but the sculpture is damaged.<br>
No doubt those two were not the evanescent romantic type..<br>
It seems women gladiators were particularly appreciated during Domitian's reign.<br>
The funny thing about it is that women gladiators were proscribed in AD 200 by Septimus Severus after a spectacle organised for the decennalia (ten years reign) of that emperor, during which they kept insulting the court sitting on the loggia while fighting with the utmost vigor...<br>
I don't want to think about what kind of insults these were...:LOL<br>
<br>
The comments are mine. I picked up all the serious info in "Amphithéatres et Gladiateurs" J.C. Golvin and C.Landes, ed. Presses du CNRS.<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Reply
#14
The photos of the women gladiators at Archeon are pretty good, but I wonder how accurate their costumes/armor are? I know there one tombstone and a recreated hair style. I know a ludis person is around here somewhere. Any details on your female members reenactment strategies? <p>Richard Campbell, Legio XX.
the HIGH NOISE/low signal person for RAT.
ICQ 940236
</p><i></i>
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
Reply
#15
I don't doubt that tombstone completely, but people always seem to place far too much weight on it as evidence. the word 'must' comes up far too often in it's context. from what i've seen of it the sculptures are in good enough nick to be able to say a lot about them, but damaged enough to allow a lot of extrapolation.<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
In the name of heaven Catiline, how long do you propose to exploit our patience..
Reply


Forum Jump: