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Roman Thrusting Spears
#16
(04-29-2016, 07:39 PM)Flavivs Aetivs Wrote:
(04-29-2016, 11:18 AM)ValentinianVictrix Wrote: I'm not convinced that the Spiculum was similar to the pilum on the basis that Ammianus uses these terms in his History to describe spears- 'hasta', 'spiculum' and separately during the reigns of Valentinian and Valens speaks of the infantry throwing 'pilis'.

There is a distinction, we have archaeological examples that show it, and the way Vegetius defines it shows it. Ammianus also uses many terms interchangeably, and much of his work was classicizing.

Evan,  can you point me to the research where you found the evidence to support archaeological finds to Vegetius' description of the Spiculum please as I am unaware of any such evidence.

Vegetius description of the Spiculum is very different to that of the Pilum, these two passages show this-

'As to the missile weapons of the infantry, they were javelins headed with a triangular sharp iron, eleven inches or a foot long, and were called piles. When once fixed in the shield it was impossible to draw them out, and when thrown with force and skill, they penetrated the cuirass without difficulty. At present they are seldom used by us, but are the principal weapon of the barbarian heavy-armed foot. They are called bebrae, and every man carries two or three of them to battle.' Veg. Bk1

'Their offensive weapons were large swords, called spathae, and smaller ones called semispathae together with five loaded javelins in the concavity of the shield, which they threw at the first charge. They had likewise two other javelins, the largest of which was composed of a staff five feet and a half long and a triangular head of iron nine inches long. This was formerly called the pilum, but now it is known by the name of spiculum.' Veg. Bk2
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#17
(05-10-2016, 12:15 PM)ValentinianVictrix Wrote: Evan,  can you point me to the research where you found the evidence to support archaeological finds to Vegetius' description of the Spiculum please as I am unaware of any such evidence.

Vegetius description of the Spiculum is very different to that of the Pilum, these two passages show this-

'As to the missile weapons of the infantry, they were javelins headed with a triangular sharp iron, eleven inches or a foot long, and were called piles. When once fixed in the shield it was impossible to draw them out, and when thrown with force and skill, they penetrated the cuirass without difficulty. At present they are seldom used by us, but are the principal weapon of the barbarian heavy-armed foot. They are called bebrae, and every man carries two or three of them to battle.' Veg. Bk1

'Their offensive weapons were large swords, called spathae, and smaller ones called semispathae together with five loaded javelins in the concavity of the shield, which they threw at the first charge. They had likewise two other javelins, the largest of which was composed of a staff five feet and a half long and a triangular head of iron nine inches long. This was formerly called the pilum, but now it is known by the name of spiculum.' Veg. Bk2

Adrian, how do you propose supporting Vegetius' description through archaeology? I mean, we have plenty of 'pilum-like' late Roman throwing spears, but none come with a label attached, so we can't be sure what they were know as to their owners.

Vegetius is by no means describing the pilum as something very different from the spiculum.
Below the quotes in Latin and English plus full ref.:

Vegetius, Epitoma 1.20
 ... Missilibus autem quibus utebatur pedestris exercitus, pila vocabantur, ferro subtili trigono praefixa unciarum novem sive pedali, quod in scuto fixum non possit abscidi et loricam scienter ac fortiter directum facile perrumpit, cuius generis apud nos iam rara sunt tela. ...
... The infantry army used to use such missiles, which used to be called pila, furnished with a fine triangular head of nine inches or a foot, which when stuck in a shield could not be dislodged and when skilfully and forcefully thrown easily pierced body armour, javelins of which kind are now rare among us .

Vegetius, Epitoma 2.15

 ... Haec erat gravis armatura, quia habebant cassides catafractas ocreas scuta gladios maiores, quos spathas vocant, et alios minores, quos semispathia nominant, plumbatas quinas positas in scutis, quas primo impetu iaciunt, item bina missibilia, unum maius ferro triangulo unciarum novem, hastili pedem quinque semis, quod pilum vocabant, nunc spiculum dicitur, ad cuius ictum exercebantur praecipue milites, quod arte et virtute directum et scutatos pedites et loricatos equites saepe transverberat, aliud minus ferro unciarum quinque, hastili pedum trium semis, quod tunc vericulum, nunc verutum dicitur. ...
... This was the heavy armament, because they used to have helmets, body armour, greaves, schields, larger swords, which they call spathae, and other smaller ones, which they call semispathia, five leadweighted darts placed in the shields, which they throw in the first charge, also two javelins, one larger one with a triangular head of nine inches, and a shaft of five and a half feet, which they used to call a pilum, now called a spiculum, at throwing which soldiers used to train hard, in order that it, guided with skill and power, often transfixed shieldbearing infantrymen and armoured horsemen, the other one smaller with a head of five inches, a shaft of three and a half feet, which formerly was called a vericulum, but nowadays a verutum.

In both descriptions he mentions the pilum and the spiculum as having a triangular head of 9 inches (repeating the pilum is now called spiculum).

We discussed this before Wink
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#18
(05-10-2016, 12:15 PM)ValentinianVictrix Wrote: 'As to the missile weapons of the infantry, they were javelins headed with a triangular sharp iron, eleven inches or a foot long, and were called piles. When once fixed in the shield it was impossible to draw them out, and when thrown with force and skill, they penetrated the cuirass without difficulty. At present they are seldom used by us, but are the principal weapon of the barbarian heavy-armed foot. They are called bebrae, and every man carries two or three of them to battle.' Veg. Bk1

Adrian, do stop using Clarke's translation. Where he got eleven inches from, I cannot imagine. Even the Latin text he was using (Scriverius 1670) has nine inches.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#19
(05-10-2016, 02:55 PM)Renatus Wrote:
(05-10-2016, 12:15 PM)ValentinianVictrix Wrote: 'As to the missile weapons of the infantry, they were javelins headed with a triangular sharp iron, eleven inches or a foot long, and were called piles. When once fixed in the shield it was impossible to draw them out, and when thrown with force and skill, they penetrated the cuirass without difficulty. At present they are seldom used by us, but are the principal weapon of the barbarian heavy-armed foot. They are called bebrae, and every man carries two or three of them to battle.' Veg. Bk1

Adrian, do stop using Clarke's translation. Where he got eleven inches from, I cannot imagine. Even the Latin text he was using (Scriverius 1670) has nine inches.

Unfortunately I'm forced to use Clarke at the moment as my copy is buried somewhere in a massive pile of books in a room covered in papers, magazines etc which I cannot access easily. I do appreciate the chiding though, I am aware of the Clarke defects but I still maintain that the Spiculum was a different weapon to the Pilum, designed to both fend off cavalry whilst retaining most of the pilum's body armour piercing effectiveness.
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#20
(05-10-2016, 03:51 PM)ValentinianVictrix Wrote: Unfortunately I'm forced to use Clarke at the moment as my copy is buried somewhere in a massive pile of books in a room covered in papers, magazines etc which I cannot access easily.

LOL - sounds like a classical archive! Big Grin
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#21
Robert, you should see the room, its a daunting task even contemplating tidying it up!
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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