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LonginusXXI: So far I have not seen evidence for "really" flat Roman shields apart from sculpture. So I suppose, the flat shields are more an artistic thing. So, curved, probably. The Berlin fresco shows them curved, e.g., and is mid- to later fist century.
Bryan: Yes, and Masada.
Christian K.
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04-16-2016, 05:03 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-16-2016, 05:56 PM by 66kbm.)
I would suggest, that Scutum were of a weight that was feasible for a soldier to operate with.
Christian makes a good case for this. Also, it would be great for people that comment on this to read the previous posts......eh?
Kevin
Is James Ajiduah still current in this conversation?
NO.....he is not. So it gets us talking, but not him.
He wanted to know.....where are you?
Kevin[/quote]
Mine aint that heavy. Why should the originals be really heavy?
Why have something that one cant handle? One needs to fight with it.
Kevin
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IIRC, there are some 1st century steles or tombstones that show ovoid (Dura-Europos late Roman style) scuta.
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Just to add something, fighting at close quarters with a short sword means you are closer to the enemy when engaging and a rectangular scutum gives far better protection in this situation. It means the enemy has a tougher time getting a strike in to either side, they have to make a more exaggerated movement in getting around you which opens them up for what the gladius was made to do.
I've used both shapes and the rectangular curved scutum offers far more protection this way. This doesn't presuppose any evidence, but I thought it worth mentioning although I suspect many on here already know this.
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(04-16-2016, 05:03 PM)66kbm Wrote: Is James Ajiduah still current in this conversation?
NO.....he is not. So it gets us talking, but not him.
He wanted to know.....where are you?
Kevin Still here Kevin
James Ajiduah
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I'm not convinced the Republican Scutum was still in use in the first century but like all things has developed and changed... obviously oval shields were still in use and continued to be so, physical evidence comes from oval leather shield covers....
Its fairly easy to estimate the overall weight of a shield if you know the type of wood used, birch which is the wood the Fayum Scutum is said to made from is around 38-42 lbs per cubic foot (air dried 20% moisture content), working on that assumption and allowing for a thickness of 1/2 inch(12mm) at the center and 3/8(9mm) at the rim a weight of around 6-7 kilos all up(as a max) including felt cover and boss..... a lighter wood such as willow 28Ibs per cubic foot (birch is on the heavier end) would reduce the weight considerably, as would a thinner shield board and drier wood...
The same would apply to the Polybius shield assuming the thickness is more or less the same....
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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Majority of metal shield edgings are thinner than 9mm
Christian K.
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(04-20-2016, 12:43 PM)caiusbeerquitius Wrote: Majority of metal shield edgings are thinner than 9mm
Hi Christian I'm aware of that, was going with a maximum rather then minimum... at 6mm(3mm less overall) you could loose a quarter to a third of the weight of the board(depending on how thick the center is) which would likely bring the weight down to what you quoted previously or a lot less if a lighter wood was used....
Ivor
"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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Crispianus Wrote:I'm not convinced the Republican Scutum was still in use in the first century but like all things has developed and changed... obviously oval shields were still in use and continued to be so, physical evidence comes from oval leather shield covers....
Its fairly easy to estimate the overall weight of a shield if you know the type of wood used, birch which is the wood the Fayum Scutum is said to made from is around 38-42 lbs per cubic foot (air dried 20% moisture content), working on that assumption and allowing for a thickness of 1/2 inch(12mm) at the center and 3/8(9mm) at the rim a weight of around 6-7 kilos all up(as a max) including felt cover and boss..... a lighter wood such as willow 28Ibs per cubic foot (birch is on the heavier end) would reduce the weight considerably, as would a thinner shield board and drier wood...
The same would apply to the Polybius shield assuming the thickness is more or less the same....
Having done a few 5km marches in kit (charity) I found the scutum ok to carry, the horizontal handle helps, plus you can angle it to rest on your shoulder. It did get a bit sore mind, but then I'm hardly in legionary condition!
What I didn't expect was how easily it caught any breeze. It was akin to having an umbrella at points as any gust would move it around a fair bit which was quite irritating at times.
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I would think that change in shape would have been gradual, accomplished as new issue kit replaced old issue one unit at a time.
You don't issue new kit piecemeal to individuals, you don't want soldiers in the same unit using different gear and you don't discard unissued or serviceable kit if you csn help it..
I can't imagine that Roman Army stores were a whole lot different to any modern ones.
New shields would have been issued when the old ones needed replacing in existing units, new units would be issued with new shields when the units were raised.
If you were posted in an out of the way place you would wait a lot longer for new kit.
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(06-21-2016, 07:45 PM)Fabricius Carbo Wrote: I would think that change in shape would have been gradual, accomplished as new issue kit replaced old issue one unit at a time.
You don't issue new kit piecemeal to individuals, you don't want soldiers in the same unit using different gear and you don't discard unissued or serviceable kit if you csn help it..
I can't imagine that Roman Army stores were a whole lot different to any modern ones.
New shields would have been issued when the old ones needed replacing in existing units, new units would be issued with new shields when the units were raised.
If you were posted in an out of the way place you would wait a lot longer for new kit.
Also what about auxiliaries?
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Regarding the weight : The hide glue has not been included ; or did you? This gives a lot of weight again . Also the weight of the paint should not be left unconsidered.
All together 4.5 to 5.5 kg? I nearly can't believe it.....
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(07-04-2016, 08:07 AM)Aurelianus Wrote: Regarding the weight : The hide glue has not been included ; or did you? This gives a lot of weight again . Also the weight of the paint should not be left unconsidered.
All together 4.5 to 5.5 kg? I nearly can't believe it.....
I think what you have to remember here is that the finished shield would include the weight of dry glue rather then wet which is significantly different, the same thing would apply to the paint....
Ivor
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Here are some depictions of Principate Roman legionaries with oval shields
P. Flavoleius Cordus, infantryman of the legio XIV Gemina from Kleinwinternheim
Caius Castricius Victor from II Adiutrix
Tombstone of an unknown togate figure, probably a legionary infantryman, decorated with a frieze of shields, curved oval among them.
Roman legionary figure from Olbia, North Pontic region
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