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Huge, sweeping question about Hadrian
#1
Glad I found this place. I'm not that well educated on Ancient Rome, but I am obsessed nonetheless (OK, the movie Gladiator had a small hand in that but don't write me off as just a dim movie fan!)<br>
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Anyway, my question... Do you think if Hadrian hadn't decided to stop expanding the Empire and continued pushing North and East instead, that it would have changed the course of history?<br>
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How far do you think the Empire could have stretched?<br>
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How much longer would it have lasted?<br>
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Would the Army just have got weaker and less reliable as it became diluted by more and more Germanic sword swingers?<br>
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So many questions, so little knowledge. Come on Roman scholars, give me some answers! <p></p><i></i>
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#2
Hmmm perplexed you see Hadrian as the "culprit".<br>
How about Augustus and Tiberius for not insisting in Germany? How about Commodus (bad guy in Gladiator) not following up his father's difficult victories and not pushing the frontier farher north? What a waste! Then how about Julian for wasting precious energy and men into Persia (after all Hadrian simply recognized that Trajan's victories in Persia were a waste of energy and impossible to hold for Rome's limited resources)?<br>
Are you refering to the wall in Britain? What was out there to gain anyway? Many others could be more criticized than Hadrian. He actually did a good thing of not over-extending the borders and went around the empire checking out the preparedness of his soldiers.<br>
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p.s. when in Italy check out Hadrian's villa in Tivoli and then of course the wonderful Pantheon in Rome.<br>
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p.p.s. The roman empire lasted in the East. Could it have lasted longer in the West? I think that in the years 400-420 it could still have saved itself for some time. But once the germanic kindoms were set up inside it was a lost case. The ancient world really changed when the Arabs entered the picture and changed the Mediterranean setting. The old Roman and Germanic europe got cut off and had to resort on its own resources. The East Romans completely understimated the importance of the Arab religious/military phenomenon and it is a good example of how unexpected things can happen in history (unexpected to those living at the time). If you look closely enough to that world you see that it was going thru a transition, sometimes smooth (Gaul ans Spain), sometimes more violent (Britain). But the real changes when the Arabs appeared. Everything took a completely unpredictable direction. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/ugoffredo.showPublicProfile?language=EN>goffredo</A> at: 7/12/01 2:08:38 pm<br></i>
Jeffery Wyss
"Si vos es non secui of solutio tunc vos es secui of preciptate."
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#3
Salve,<br>
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Counterfactual history is a bit off topic, but here are answers to some of your questions anyway.<br>
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When considering the lack of expansion of the empire for much of the imperial era one has to think of the political risk posed by such an undertaking. When entrusted to a subordinate commander, the emperor risked an usurpation by a succesful commander with a large army. On the other hand when campaigning himself there was the risk of defeat and rebellion behind his back. These were considerations that anyone intent on staying in power had to take into account before embarking on campaigns of conquest.<br>
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A further brake on expansion would have been costs and benefits. Even though considerations of prestige are likely to have motivated decisions to start a new conquest to a greater extent than the wealth to be gained, war and conquest was meant o return riches. There was little worth having in the northern barbaricum that could not be extracted by trade. The east offered more scope of a profit and became the scene for several Roman campaigns of conquest in the second, third and fourth centuries.<br>
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Regarding a possible decrease in the strength and reliability of the army due to an increase of Germanic sword swingers the answer would probably be no. Both provincials and barbarians were succesfully incorporated in the imperial army without a decrease in its capabilities. The notion that there was a process of barbarisation or Germanisation of the late Roman army resulting in a decrease of its fighting capabilities is no longer adhered to in academic circles. The late army still contained a majority of provincials and was as capable as its predecessors.<br>
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When considering reliability in terms of treasonous behaviour the effect would probably be limited as well. Though there are instances recorded in which Germans from across the borders serving in the Roman army were passing information to the enemy, such acts were not limited to soldiers recruited from foreign lands. There seems to have been no greater risk of rebellion due to the employment of Germanic soldiers and officers. The appointment of such new men, probably resented by the old guard and more dependent on the favour of their benefactors, may have had the additional purpose of reducing the risk of usurpations.<br>
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Regards,<br>
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Sander van Dorst <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=sandervandorst>Sander van Dorst</A> at: 7/12/01 1:48:58 pm<br></i>
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#4
Yes. I'm not really blaming poor Hadrian. He's actually one of the Emperors I've admired most since I began reading up on the subject. I suppose I'm just trying to pinpoint where things might have started going wrong for Rome.<br>
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I know the fall of the (Western) Empire was a gradual and very complex issue, and I guess I just need to keep reading deeper into it to hopefully find the answers I'm looking for.<br>
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I suppose that, with the many migrating tribes, other expanding powers and internal bickering that Rome was destined to fall eventually. Nothing lasts forever as they say. So I'm going to stop getting frustrated about what could have been and start enjoying the history it left us with, before I fall on my mail order Gladius! <p></p><i></i>
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#5
Now to see if any of that revision I did for my finals got further than my short term memory...<br>
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THe main problem with Hadrian is he suffers from what really should have been Trajan's legacy. THe Eastern provinces simply were not viable conquests. Trajan died at a fortuitous time for his reputartion, at the peak of his conquests, but leaving legions in the east that had to be extracted from un unviable tactical position and provinces that it was uneconomic to maintain. Hadrian had to do the dirty work that Trajan escaped by death.<br>
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As to his actions as Emperor i think that Hadrian was in fact the most progressive of all the Emperor's of the Early Empire, with the obvious exception of Augustus. His recognition was that it was simply insufficient for the population of the empire in general to have as their only Imperial contact the face on the coin. THe massive tours that he embarked on were linked to a desire to make the Emperor accessible. Imperial presence became massively importance throughout the later empire, hence the tetrarchies and seeing how we've mentioned him already Julian, raised to caesar in Gaul by Constantius precisely because of the need to have a stropng Imperial presence. however the later Empire is Sander's turf, I'll let him talk about that .<br>
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Also we should consider whether or not we should really think of hadrian as stopping Roman expansion. Until Trajan the only major expansion since Augustus was the acquisiton of Britain. WE know the stories about Caligula having his soldiers collect sea shells and so forth. IMO the presentation of an image of Imperialmilitary success was more important than the actuality of it. What Hadrian did was to express Roman power. Hadrian's wall represents Imperial rule far more than it does a border. The wall did not really mark the border to the Empire, trade flowed freely through it, there were Roman out-posts in Scotland and further expansion in the Antonine period. Thinking of borders is applying modern considerations to ancient situations. Rome did not have straegic aims in the way modern powers might. They idea of her first expanding and then seeking natural boundaries is anachronism. (This if I remember correctly is a problem with Luttwack, he thinks in modern strategic terms, and forgets the Romans didn't have accurate maps.)<br>
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I think i've left out most of what I wanted to say when I started to write, and now I've forgotten this. As to it being OT, well yes, but a little speculation doesn't hurt for fun, and can provoke some sensible discussion, so I'll leave things alone for the moment<br>
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In the name of heaven Catiline, how long do you propose to exploit our patience..
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