03-28-2001, 06:17 AM
Salve,<br>
<br>
Good to have you join us as editor for the naval subjects.<br>
<br>
The navy is listed separately in the strength figures given for the armed forces of Diocletian (some 389.000 for army, some 40.000 for the fleet, the actual figures are suspiciously precise, not these round numbers, which may indicate (1) that they are fictitious or (2) that they are based on real strength reports) which gives the impression of being considered distinct branches in some manner. They do seem however to have been working together much more closely than in more recent times. There are papyri mentioning army soldiers at duty on board ships, there is an inscription mentioning a legionary <i> discens epibatam/epibatae</i> (trainee marine) and there were contingents of <i> liburnarii</i> in legions at the Danubian frontier in the fourth century AD. In addition there were the <i> cohortes classiariorum</i>, <i> cohortes classicae</i> and the <i> legiones</i> I and II <i> Adiutrices</i> originating from the navy but serving as land forces, this apart from the transfers individually or en bloc (eg the draft of naval troops to beef up <i> legio</i> X <i> Fretensis</i> you mentioned in your earlier post) between the services. The <i> De munitionibus castrorum</i> also seems to point to the inclusion of <i> classiarii</i> as part of an expeditionary army. In addition along the Rhine and Danube most fleet installations seem to be part of army (perhaps better: joint army-navy) bases. The evidence thus seems to me to point to a distinctive service, but one operating in a very close connection with the army.<br>
<br>
There is a reference in Vegetius about navy personel wearing blue tunics and in addition there are several depictions with soldiers wearing blue tunics of both dark and light shades. According to Fuentes the dark blue tunics belong to naval officers (naval centurions wearing red according to his theory), the light ones to other ranks for there are more depictions of the latter. The subject of Roman uniform colours is hotly debated though. In my view there is no (or perhaps not yet) compelling evidence to assume a uniform in the modern sense and Roman soldiers could probably wear what they wanted or could afford, the shades attested for the military (mostly white (cheapest) and various colours) not being distinct from those used in civilian life. There is a depiction late Roman guardsmen (<i> scholares</i>?) wearing a mixture of clothing including blue. The issue of a distinct naval uniform is in my view unresolved.<br>
<br>
Vegetius, <i> Epitoma rei militaris</i> 4.37.<br>
<br>
Nautaeque uel milites Venetam uestem<br>
induunt, ut non solum per noctem sed etiam per diem facilius lateant explorantes.<br>
<br>
'The sailors or soldiers wear blue clothing, so they remain hidden more easily while scouting not only at night but even during the day.'<br>
<br>
This may however have been limited to those serving at the scouting vessels, rather than all sailors and soldiers serving with the fleet.<br>
<br>
The Fuentes article is:<br>
<br>
Fuentes, N., 'The Roman military tunic' in: M. Dawson (ed.), <i> BARi 336: Roman military equipment: the accoutrements of war</i> (Oxford 1987), 41-71.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Sander van Dorst <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=sandervandorst>Sander van Dorst</A> at: 3/28/01 10:34:23 am<br></i>
<br>
Good to have you join us as editor for the naval subjects.<br>
<br>
The navy is listed separately in the strength figures given for the armed forces of Diocletian (some 389.000 for army, some 40.000 for the fleet, the actual figures are suspiciously precise, not these round numbers, which may indicate (1) that they are fictitious or (2) that they are based on real strength reports) which gives the impression of being considered distinct branches in some manner. They do seem however to have been working together much more closely than in more recent times. There are papyri mentioning army soldiers at duty on board ships, there is an inscription mentioning a legionary <i> discens epibatam/epibatae</i> (trainee marine) and there were contingents of <i> liburnarii</i> in legions at the Danubian frontier in the fourth century AD. In addition there were the <i> cohortes classiariorum</i>, <i> cohortes classicae</i> and the <i> legiones</i> I and II <i> Adiutrices</i> originating from the navy but serving as land forces, this apart from the transfers individually or en bloc (eg the draft of naval troops to beef up <i> legio</i> X <i> Fretensis</i> you mentioned in your earlier post) between the services. The <i> De munitionibus castrorum</i> also seems to point to the inclusion of <i> classiarii</i> as part of an expeditionary army. In addition along the Rhine and Danube most fleet installations seem to be part of army (perhaps better: joint army-navy) bases. The evidence thus seems to me to point to a distinctive service, but one operating in a very close connection with the army.<br>
<br>
There is a reference in Vegetius about navy personel wearing blue tunics and in addition there are several depictions with soldiers wearing blue tunics of both dark and light shades. According to Fuentes the dark blue tunics belong to naval officers (naval centurions wearing red according to his theory), the light ones to other ranks for there are more depictions of the latter. The subject of Roman uniform colours is hotly debated though. In my view there is no (or perhaps not yet) compelling evidence to assume a uniform in the modern sense and Roman soldiers could probably wear what they wanted or could afford, the shades attested for the military (mostly white (cheapest) and various colours) not being distinct from those used in civilian life. There is a depiction late Roman guardsmen (<i> scholares</i>?) wearing a mixture of clothing including blue. The issue of a distinct naval uniform is in my view unresolved.<br>
<br>
Vegetius, <i> Epitoma rei militaris</i> 4.37.<br>
<br>
Nautaeque uel milites Venetam uestem<br>
induunt, ut non solum per noctem sed etiam per diem facilius lateant explorantes.<br>
<br>
'The sailors or soldiers wear blue clothing, so they remain hidden more easily while scouting not only at night but even during the day.'<br>
<br>
This may however have been limited to those serving at the scouting vessels, rather than all sailors and soldiers serving with the fleet.<br>
<br>
The Fuentes article is:<br>
<br>
Fuentes, N., 'The Roman military tunic' in: M. Dawson (ed.), <i> BARi 336: Roman military equipment: the accoutrements of war</i> (Oxford 1987), 41-71.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Sander van Dorst <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=sandervandorst>Sander van Dorst</A> at: 3/28/01 10:34:23 am<br></i>
