Roman Patera Replica

[derek forrest]

I have one of the simkins ones and its worked very well over the years usually to mull wine. Its thickness is not a problem. I also have a cast one that weighs a ton and would NOT be included in my impedimenta.<br>
<br>
We tried a lot of experiments but it is vey difficult to cast them thin. Maybe the Romans had the skill. Otherwise grind them down as you say but its a lot of work and wasted metal. <p></p><i></i>

[Mithras]

<em>The Simkins skillet you admire is fine for the 1st and 2nd centuries, but would be out of place in the 4th or 5th. The specific Paterae posted from the Bar Kochba caves is of the type used in religious ceremonies rather than basic cooking, and it would be highly unlikely a legionary would be using it as a cooking utensil whether in the 2nd or 5th centuries A.D.<br>
<br>
Dan</em><br>
<br>
Dan - That's exactly what I meant. When I said 'patera' I envisaged the 1st C pateras I've seen in re-enactment everywhere. The Deepeeka patera is not suitable for 4thC use. We do not use them ... I'd not realised the term was more general and would cover my battered copper and brass frying pan too!<br>
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Anyway, as I said - wrong century! <p><strong>Paul Elliott/<em>Caius Fortunatus</em></strong><br>
<br>
3rd Century Auxiliary (<em>Cohors Quinta Gallorum</em>)<br>
<br>
4th Century Legionnary (<em>Comitatus</em>)<br>
<br>
www.geocities.com/zozergames/interactive.html</p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Ok, I will hold off on buying one or converting Deepeeka's until I can see a proper 4th or 5th century example of one. Hopefully, Dan will have his scanner operational soon and will help us out. This is good debate, though, perhaps it will help shed some light on the equipment of the late Roman soldier and how it evolved. I have often wondered about such things as his patera, whether he used a furca on the march, etc.<br>
Paul, where did you find your replica folding frying pan? Perhaps I should lean more towards something of that type... <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica<br>
www.greeneknightforge.bravehost.com </p><i></i>

[Mithras]

My folding frying pan is made by Steve Wagstaff here in the England, for around £45. Steve makes replicas based on specific items he's seen, and he travels alot around Europe looking at collections. I have a vague memory that the pan is a copy of one found on the Wall, but I could be mistaken ...<br>
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<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/lord_mithras/History1/foldingpan.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
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EDIT: Let me add that the folding design, added to the lack of depth to the pan, make it great for stowage in a pack. Its a wonderful design, and it would stand shoulders above some modern camping frying pans I've seen in the shops. If I were a 4thC legionary, I'd want one.<br>
<br>
<p><strong>Paul Elliott/<em>Caius Fortunatus</em></strong><br>
<br>
3rd Century Auxiliary (<em>Cohors Quinta Gallorum</em>)<br>
<br>
4th Century Legionnary (<em>Comitatus</em>)<br>
<br>
www.geocities.com/zozergames/interactive.html</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=mithras@romanarmytalk>Mithras</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://forum.rpg.net/image.php?u=140&dateline=1069884232" BORDER=0> at: 3/19/05 11:32 am<br></i>

[Crispvs]

Derek,<br>
When I spoke with Lindsey Allison-Jones I too queried the loss of so much valuable bronze from being pared down on a lathe, as I had always found that metal filings were difficult to melt down and re-use. She replied however, that a Roman lathe would have rotated at a much slower speed than a modern one and that the ionic composition of the metal would not have been modified by the generation the level of heat that a modern lathe produces. She said therefore, that the filings could have been melted and re-cast in a way that filings from a modern lathe cannot be.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

Mithras,<br>
Sorry, I didn't see your post. Steve Wagstaff does make a number of useful items which are difficult to obtain elsewhere, but watch out for machine marks which still need to be removed and items welded together from separate plates rather than being beaten into shape.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

Apparently Lindsey is not familiar with the work of Dr. Alfred Mutz, nor could she have studied thin-walled Roman bronze vessels in any great detail. If she had she would know that Dr. Mutz has reconstructed a Roman bronze spinning lathe operated by a foot treadle, and was able to generate enough speed to make spun paterae and other vessels. You can see the vessels he made in the museum in Augst. I visited him at his home and saw the lathe, and he gave me a copy of his excellent book which shows numerous Roman vessels and other objects made by the spinning process. No ifs, buts, or maybes, the Roman formed thin walled bronze vessels, helmets and other objects thorugh the spinning process.<br>
<br>
Lindsey is right that cast bronze paterae and other vessels were indeed finished/polished on spinning lathes, but thin walled vessels pushed from bronze sheet were actually made on these lathes. Even Roman helmets which certainly were not cast, were spun from sheet bronze. This is mentioned in Russell Robinson's AofIR.<br>
<br>
The notion that massive cast bronze vessels (and so spinning-marked helmets too), were ground down on a lathe to the consistency of thin sheet metal is ridiculous.<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Ave Danus,<br>
I have long been intrigued by this subject myself. Many people say that the patera with a thick handle, and occasionally thick rim are somehow made in one piece, but it has never made much sense to me. Why would you cast and then grind off huge amounts of metal, when you could, exactly as you say, start thin and spin it the same as a bronze helmet. But would you then solder on a handle? "Everyone" says they are all one piece! As I am sure you have examined many original pieces personally, would you say this is a reasonable way to construct them- I mean in several pieces? I have also been told they were cast with a thin disk and the handle in the "normal" thickness, then spun, but wouldn't that heavy handle off to the side wreak havoc with the centrifugal force of the lathe? How does this Dr. Mutz do it?<br>
This is a very interesting subject and I am eager to hear more of your thoughts on it.<br>
I wonder if you have any pictures of Dr. Mutz' lathe that you could post. I also wonder how it works. Does he force the spinning brass over a mold? Or is it free formed?<br>
Vale, Florentius <p></p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Dan,<br>
What is the smallest diameter skillet (and by that I mean an actual "frying pan") that has been found in a late Roman context that you are aware of? If the pan was pretty small (like 6 or 8 inches), that wouldn't be too bad to have slung from one's gear, but I don't want a pan the size of a car tire or anything... Could one of these frying pans be easily beaten out of a piece of sheet steel or maybe brass?<br>
I rather fancy the fixed-type handles over the folding kind, that way I can sling it from my gear with a leather thong through the hole in the handle rather than carry it inside my bag. Can the incised decorations such as those on the patera handle also be found on frying pan handles? If I can't have a patera, I'll go with a nice Roman frying pan. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica<br>
www.greeneknightforge.bravehost.com </p><i></i>

[Gaius Octavius Drusus]

Ave:<br>
<br>
That pan you pictured somewaht resembles half of the mess gear currently issued for field use in the U.S Army.<br>
<br>
Vale:<br>
<br>
Gaius <p></p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

Lucius,<br>
The known late Roman Paterae (or simply call them cupric alloy skillets and saucepans for those who want to debate that name) range in size just as the more familiar, 1st century ones. In fact, the "drinking cup"-size ones have survived with greater frenquency than most, because of their appearance in numerous Germannic barbarian graves (no doubt serving as their personal drinking cup).<br>
<br>
Improved paterae are on the top of my list for new Deepeeka products and you will see them this year. With the ever increasing interest in Late Romans (and Dark Age Warriors as well), at least one style of distinctly "late" 4th-5th century will be made as well, and hopefully all of these in bronze, since Orichulum (brass) seems to largely be a "strategic" material controlled by the government and most commonly seen in coinage and military equipment.<br>
Dan<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Hi Dan,<br>
Thanks for your message! Since you have the late patera at the top of your list for Deepeeka, I will hold off on buying one elsewhere until Deepeeka gets theirs done, and I will buy it from them instead, as I am definitely more interested in a later type patera over an alternate type of utensil. I can't wait to see it. In the mean time, however, did you get your scanner going? I'd like for all of us to be able to see some of your pics of the pateras, if you can post them whenever you're able.<br>
By the way, sorry I missed Lafe this year, it would have been nice to be able to meet you in person, but you know how home re-modeling can sap your funds sometimes... If they get their plans for a late Roman event developed for sure, though, I'll definitely be there. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica<br>
www.greeneknightforge.bravehost.com </p><i></i>

[Peroni]

Salvete Omnes,

I recently ordered a beautifully crafted patera from Aurifica Treverica in Germany. Erik makes various types and they are well priced for the craftsmanship put into the work.

They are great people to communicate with, very friendly and their english is excellent!

http://replik-online.de/en/eng/index2.html

Valete,

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Are there any paterae that have been found with the handles NOT cast directly to the body? In other words, either braized or riveted on? How thick are the handles on most originals (I mean a "ball-park" figure, I know they probably varied quite a bit)? Thanks for any help you guys can provide.

[Mithras]

Hey, I just found this photo of a GLASS patera, looks just like the 1st C bronze replicas used by the army. In glass.... nice!