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Tarbicus · 03-19-2005, 11:10 PM

Saw this photo of what seems to be a Gallic H at Xanten on the Exploratio Imagebase website. Where there was once bronze, I assume, you can see darkening of the iron. 
 
<img src="http://www.romanauxilia.com/Exploratio/xanten/Image005_3A.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
But, where the browguard would normally be, there is no difference in colour at all. Is that due to there being a gap between the guard and the helmet, or is it possible this helm had no guard there? 
 
Jim/Tarbicus Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tarbicus>Tarbicus</A> at: 3/20/05 12:11 am

mcbishop · 03-20-2005, 12:11 PM

where the browguard would normally be, there is no difference in colour at all. Is that due to there being a gap between the guard and the helmet, or is it possible this helm had no guard there? 
 
The browguard was normally only attached by a single rivet on either side and some even have enough play in them to move up slightly (the amount of movement depending upon the curvature of the guard and that of the bowl). There would definitely have been one, however. A helmet without a browguard would have been about as much use as a chocolate teapot. It may well have been cannibalised at the same time as the browband was taken off. 
 
Mike Bishop

Tarbicus · 03-20-2005, 02:48 PM

Thanks Mike. I just found it odd as on most similar helmets the browguard seems to have stayed put and blended into the helm with age, etc. But then, the bronze stayed on those too.

**Robert Vermaat** · 03-20-2005, 10:15 PM

Quote:<hr>A helmet without a browguard would have been about as much use as a chocolate teapot. <hr> 
 
That's an interesting statement. For the Late Roman Intercisa series don't have browguards, or nasals. As do some earlier Roman cavalry helmets. And of course a great deal of helmets from the Middle East or other non-Roman cultures in this period, as well as before and after. 
 
So why would all of these helmets have neither brown guard nor a nasal, if they were "about as much use as a chocolate teapot"? 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]

mcbishop · 03-20-2005, 10:28 PM

So why would all of these helmets have neither brown guard nor a nasal, if they were "about as much use as a chocolate teapot"? 
 
Because they're not early imperial helmets, where it was an unfailing rule for infantry helmets. We can each draw our own conclusions about why this should be (similar to the old 'why is lorica seg so shoddy?' chestnut) but what we can't do is deny that it was indeed so. There are of course innumerable examples of helmets through the ages without browguards... just not early imperial Roman infantry helmets. Perhaps I should have said 'an Imperial-Gallic helmet without a browguard would have been (in the eyes of the Romans) about as much use as a chocolate teapot.' Had the Romans known what a teapot was... or chocolate, come to that... 
 
Mike Bishop

03-20-2005, 10:31 PM

Dumb question- was the brow-guard solely to protect the nose and forehead from down ward blows, or was there another purpose? 
 
Paulus

Marcus Mummius · 03-20-2005, 11:45 PM

The browguard kind of absorbs the forces of a blow I think. The force is dispersed along the sides and you survive instead of having your head cleaved in two.

Tarbicus · 03-21-2005, 01:48 AM

I just remembered seeing an illustration by someone like Graham Sumner or Angus McBride (or another artist) of a legionary wearing a Newstead seg, with a browguard-less Gallic/Italic type helmet. Anyone got a comment? I'm sure it was in an Osprey book.....maybe.

Daniel S Peterson · 03-21-2005, 04:25 AM

More interesting may be the neck ridges of this helmet, which appears to be three embossed ridges instead of the more characteristic "steps" of most Imperial Gallic helmets. I seem to recall that a certain self-acclaimed American "expert" had announced this this was "unauthentic", (despite the fact it can be seen on numerous earlier and later Roman helmets), and imperiously ordered his minions that Imp.Gallic helmets with such neck ridges were not allowed in his group! 
Dan

***Praefectusclassis*** · 03-21-2005, 06:21 AM

I don't dream in Gallic A to I, but if this is the same type, then it does show the browguard (and ridges too). 
<img src="http://www.romanarmy.com/RATstuff/Nijmegenhelmet.jpg" style="border:0;"/> Greets 
 
JasperEdited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jasperoorthuys>Jasper Oorthuys</A> at: 3/21/05 7:22 am

03-21-2005, 06:25 AM

Ave Tarb. 
Are there any more angles on this helmet? I can't see if there are any holes for rivets any where, there sure don't appear to be any in the front! 
Danus, is it true that these helmets are always made in 1 piece, the bowl and neck guard? 
Florentius

Tarbicus · 03-21-2005, 07:48 AM

Hi Florentius, here you go: 
 
<img src="http://www.romanauxilia.com/Exploratio/xanten/xanten_helmets/Image005_3Aa.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
<img src="http://www.romanauxilia.com/Exploratio/xanten/xanten_helmets/Image022_20A.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
Here's the direct link: 
Exploratio Xanten 5 
And other pages: 
Exploratio Xanten 4 
Exploratio Xanten 6 
 
Hmm. I think my Deepeekas are looking not too bad at last The guilt complex is lifting 
 
Jim/Tarbicus 
 
In fact, if anyone tries to tell me my Gallics are pants from now on - watch out, I got photos and I'll use 'em Thanks Dan and Jasper! Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tarbicus>Tarbicus</A> at: 3/21/05 8:54 am

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