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Hibernicus · 03-12-2005, 01:28 AM

Avete, 
 
Well, I dabbled at making an Intercisa IV version 
More soon! and with the embossed eyes and crescents too 
 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1_01side.jpg 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1_02rtrear.jpg 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1_03ltfront.jpg 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1_04lfside.jpg 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1scythius.01.jpg 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1scythius.03.jpg 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1scythius.04.jpg 
 
The steel's hand raised and some was hot worked. 
Goatskin edging.. didn't have enough hand spun linen thread for the sewing.. next time! 
 
This one was made for Dave Kufner in Louisiana USA 
 
 
Hibernicus 
LEG IX HSPA

03-12-2005, 02:03 AM

www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1_01side.jpg 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1_02rtrear.jpg 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1_03ltfront.jpg 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1_04lfside.jpg 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1scythius.01.jpg 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1scythius.03.jpg 
www.rlqm.com/intivrlqmv1scythius.04.jpg 
 
 
Hib, 
 
Looks good. For some reason you have to put the httpsin the begining of the url. 
 
Dave [url=http://www.freewebs.com/davekufner" target="top]www.freewebs.com/davekufner[/url]Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=davekufner>Dave Kufner</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Segontium/" BORDER=0> at: 3/12/05 3:05 am

Marcus Seneca Cato · 03-12-2005, 06:17 AM

There's somebody else here in Louisiana other than me? That makes me feel all fuzzy

aitor iriarte · 03-12-2005, 09:28 AM

Hibernicus, 
Sorry to interrupt the festivities but bear in mind for next works that all Intercisa helmets were originally covered in embossed silver plate. Of course, all of it, except some trifle remains, was stripped before the iron parts were discarded or stored awaiting re-use. All those raised or sunken eyes, crosses, half moons, etc were intended to enhance stamped decorative patterns on the now lost silver sheathing. 
 
Aitor Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=aitoririarte>Aitor Iriarte</A> at: 3/12/05 10:29 am

03-12-2005, 01:19 PM

Aitor, 
 
So any embssing would have been done to the silver and not the iron/steel? 
 
Marcus what part of Louisiana are you from? 
 
Dave [url=http://www.freewebs.com/davekufner" target="top]www.freewebs.com/davekufner[/url]

Daniel S Peterson · 03-12-2005, 01:48 PM

Dave, 
You can see examples of this embossing on the silver plate on a number of original helmets, both "cavalry" and "infantry" types. The Deepeeka Dearne helmet is done this way, though with fairly thick sheet brass instead of thin silver, so the designs are not as "crisp" as the orignals. Deepeeka has made one "embossed" prototype intercissa for me, and would probably go into production if a quantity were requested/ordered. If you are coming to Lafe I will bring it. 
 
Were all ridge helmets covered with silver plate and richly embossed with delicate decoration? I think not. There is one copper gilt cavalry type ridge helmet from Hungary which I recall was perfectly smooth without embossing, though it was nevetheless covered with gilt copper sheet. 
 
Gilded and silvered helmets were probably the perogative of the elite field army. I suspect the helmets of 2nd clas troops, and in the armories of cities were unadorned, and this is probably what the Intercissa helmets were intended for, though earlier in their life belonged to the field army. 
 
I have an original cheekpiece of the intercissa type that had been covered with copper instead of silver sheet, though whether it had been gilded or silvered, or if also embossed, I cannot say. 
 
Dan

03-12-2005, 02:31 PM

Dan, 
 
Yes, I will be at Lafe next week. I plan on going up on Thursday so I can continue work on the celtic hut. If the Intercisa gets here before I leave I will bring it. 
 
Do you think I could do something to the crest to make it stand out? 
 
I look forward to seeing you around the camp fire. 
 
Dave [url=http://www.freewebs.com/davekufner" target="top]www.freewebs.com/davekufner[/url]

aitor iriarte · 03-12-2005, 03:20 PM

Dave, 
No, only the big sunken or raised motives were embossed on the iron core too. It was the fine shallow embossing which was only done on the silver. 
Dan, 
Of course, the helmets could be covered with copper plate too, remember that fragmentary helmet from the Guttmann collection, covered with gilt copper sheet. I also think that there were plain late helmets but, the Intercisa helmets (not 'Intercisa' as a type of helmet) were covered with silver sheet and Intercisa IV still exhibits some traces. 
 
Aitor

**Robert Vermaat** · 03-12-2005, 04:16 PM

Hi Dan, 
 
Quote:<hr>Gilded and silvered helmets were probably the perogative of the elite field army. I suspect the helmets of 2nd clas troops, and in the armories of cities were unadorned, and this is probably what the Intercissa helmets were intended for, though earlier in their life belonged to the field army.<hr> 
 
I agree that some elaborate helmet may well have been the property of a cavalry man (officer) due to the amount of money needed to make such a helmet. I bet they would not have been standard issue for the elite higher ranks though. 
 
So far, all but one Late Roman helmets betray at least traces of silver layers, even on the rivets. 
All Intercisa helmets (and traces of a few dozen were found there) have it, including other Intercisa-type helmets found in other regions (such as the Gutmann-Intercisa and the Venlo one). 
 
I can find no proof for any 'second rate' armour, intended for the limitanei or something. 'Armouries of cities' would hold weapons for the field army mostly (who were often billeted in towns and cities), because the limitanei were stationed along the borders, far from the cities. 
 
And, which I will add again and again, even though we know that limitanei earned less than comitatenses, they were good enough to be promoted to the field army without much trouble. No second-rate forces. Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]

Marcus Seneca Cato · 03-13-2005, 06:23 AM

Baton Rouge. You?

03-13-2005, 01:48 PM

Marcus, 
 
I'm down here in Patterson, about 1:45 minutes away from BR. 
Are you an Imperial soldier or do you do late roman as well? 
I'm working on both. 
 
Dave 
[url=http://www.freewebs.com/davekufner" target="top]www.freewebs.com/davekufner[/url]

Marcus Seneca Cato · 03-13-2005, 11:05 PM

Well, I'd be very happy to do imperial Roman, should some free equipment drop out of the sky as a present from Iuppiter I'm quite poor. I was looking into buying a lorica segmentata from the LaWren site.... but my car needs fixin'.

**Robert Vermaat** · 03-14-2005, 11:11 AM

Guys, could we change the subject back to the helmet, or else start a new thread? Please? Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]

aitor iriarte · 03-14-2005, 11:37 AM

Are you feeling nicky-picky, Robert? 
Returning to helmets, have you had a look at the reconstructed Hungarian one (A beautiful Berkasovo 2 type) at the Italian exhibition about Constantine? 
 
Aitor

Daniel S Peterson · 03-14-2005, 01:00 PM

Robert, 
By virtue of the fact that the Intercissa helmets were found with their cheek plates and neck guards in situ, suggests that after they were stripped of their silver foil, they were reassembled for use. This then seems to indicate that they were to actually be used despite not having their decoration. By the circumstances of their deposition, other infantry ridge helmets, such as Augst and Worms also seem to have also been used after the removal of their foil. All of this suggests that although all of these helmets boasted such decoration early in their lives, they continued to be used without their decoration. In conlusion then, it woould not be improbable to see "plain" iron helmets in use in the "late Roman" period. 
 
We probably exaggerate how precious these helmets actually were based on how expensive modern replicas are, (made by a certain German craftsman that is). In reality, this identical kind of work is still very common in North Africa and the Near East, with such mundane objects as coffee tables being covered with the richly embossed plates. I have seen them work, and it is amazing how fast they can emboss these plates. 
 
Dan

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