The Transition of Maile

[Dan Howard]

Most Japanese kusari opened at the front or side. Middle Eastern kazaghands were made in both ways - some opened at the front, others were slipped over the head like a hauberk.

What may seem impractical to us may not to someone a thousand years ago.

[Stephen Bennett]

Indeed, I'm not aware of a single surviving kusari that is enclosed. Similarly, I know of jazerant (kazaghand), which are open, and unlined western asian hauberks, which are not. I may well have missed something though. So you have a specific example of a surviving enclosed jazerant, Dan?

[Nathan Ross]

Its practicality can't be disputed. The only contention is how common it was for the Romans.

All sorts of things were used by other cultures and at other periods; that doesn't mean the Romans used them!

No surviving Roman mail shows any evidence of an integral liner, nor do any depictions appear to show it. I would also cite the fragments of mail found inside the bowl of the Hebron helmet, suggesting that mail could be rolled up and stored inside other armour. Difficult or impossible if it had a liner attached.

Surely we have to proceed from the evidence we have, rather than assuming that ancient cultures must have done this or that because other cultures or peoples did something similar?

[JaM]

wait, what about this here:

https://bookandsword.com/2016/07/09/the-...t-studies/

The latest volume includes things like:

    Two examples of Roman lorica hamata squamataque preserved as a whole (rather than as loose scales or small clusters of scales), one of which was preserved with its linen liner. To my knowledge, this is the first archaeological evidence for mail with a lining in the Roman world.

anybody got that journal?

[Bryan]

wait, what about this here:

https://bookandsword.com/2016/07/09/the-...t-studies/

The latest volume includes things like:

    Two examples of Roman lorica hamata squamataque preserved as a whole (rather than as loose scales or small clusters of scales), one of which was preserved with its linen liner. To my knowledge, this is the first archaeological evidence for mail with a lining in the Roman world.

anybody got that journal?

The author is a member here, send him a message and ask him to elaborate.

[JaM]

yeah, i think i found the work on academia.edu actually. very interesting piece actually... made in the same shape as typical Roman Tunic..

The resemblance between the cross-shaped tunic and the Vimose coat of mail is no coincidence.
It is very probable that in antiquity the coat of mail was not seen merely as a piece of
armour, but as a tunic in its own right, albeit one that offered protection to its wearer. There is
some literary support for this suggestion. Varro, who wrote in the 1st century BC, speaks of ex
anulis ferrea tunica, or the ‘iron tunic made of rings’, to refer to the mail coat when he is explaining
the etymological origin of the word for cuirass (lorica). This author, then, confirms
that the mail coat was perceived as a tunic.   Varro, De lingua latina, V.24.

edit: my mistake, this is from another article actually   but all in all, must say its very interesting article, up to this point i thought only mail from Roman period was the one from Dura Europos..

[Nathan Ross]

wait, what about this here:

...Two examples of Roman lorica hamata squamataque ... one of which was preserved with its linen liner.

Good find - thanks! 'Hamata Squamataque' would necessarily be rather more rigid than normal mail though, and may have needed the linen backing or liner as a support. But the preservation of a liner with this very particular style of mail and the lack of any trace of such in other styles might reinforce the idea that they were not used with normal mail.

up to this point i thought only mail from Roman period was the one from Dura Europos..

There's quite a bit, in fact, although mostly fragmentary. The Vimose shirt is one of three relatively complete mail armours from the period, as far as I know, along with the Arbeia one and the Dura 'Persian trident' example. Some publications suggest it was not actually Roman but native Germanic; make of that what you will...

[JaM]

right, completely forgot about Arbeia..

[martijn.wijnhoven]

wait, what about this here:

https://bookandsword.com/2016/07/09/the-...t-studies/

The latest volume includes things like:

    Two examples of Roman lorica hamata squamataque preserved as a whole (rather than as loose scales or small clusters of scales), one of which was preserved with its linen liner. To my knowledge, this is the first archaeological evidence for mail with a lining in the Roman world.

anybody got that journal?

The hybrid armour (consisting of an inner layer of mail and an outer layer of small scales) that was found with a textile liner is that from Vize, Turkey.
 
I offer the following information about this feature in my latest paper:
“Possibly the most telling feature of the Vize armours excellent state of preservation is that the textile liner is still present. The textile was made of a medium coarse linen of a brown-beige colour that was sewn to the mail links at various points on the armours edges. The linen was not of a high quality and it was only properly fixed in a few places, which raises the question of whether it was another‘quick fix’, or whether it was supposed to be the actual finished liner.”
 
Source:
Wijnhoven, M.A. 2016: Putting the Scale into Mail: Roman Hybrid Feathered Armour, Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies 17: 77-86.
 
You can purchase a copy (paper or digital) of the journal by subscribing to ARMES  
http://a-r-m-e-s.org/the-association-for-roman-military-equipment-studies/jrmes/jrmes-17-2016/
http://a-r-m-e-s.org/the-association-for-roman-military-equipment-studies/subscribe/
 
Best wishes,
Martijn

[Dan Howard]

The linen was not of a high quality and it was only properly fixed in a few places, which raises the question of whether it was another‘quick fix’, or whether it was supposed to be the actual finished liner.”

More likely it was a feature specifically designed to make the liner easy to remove for maintenance.

[Stephen Bennett]

Many thanks, Martijn.

Unfortunately, subscription to the journal is not possible until next week due to the admin being on holiday.

Am I correct in thinking the Carlisle find is probably the collar cape from lorica squamata, i.e. we are on similar ground to lined doubling rather than lined and enclosed armour?

Also, are there any indications that the Vize finds are indicative of enclosed armour, i.e. one without an opening to the front or side?

Regards,

[martijn.wijnhoven]

The linen was not of a high quality and it was only properly fixed in a few places, which raises the question of whether it was another‘quick fix’, or whether it was supposed to be the actual finished liner.”

More likely it was a feature specifically designed to make the liner easy to remove for maintenance.

That is indeed one option, but we have to consider context as well. 

 

The armour from Vize has never been worn and was unfinished when deposited in the tomb of its owner. It shows multiple evidence of being rushed to completion (possibly because of the owner's untimely death) incorporating quick-fixes that make the armour unwearable in its current configuration. The manner in which the liner was fixed resembles the overall picture of the armour being rushed to completion, offering another option of interpretation. 

 

Since we do not have the means to decide which of these options is correct, I offer them both in my paper.

Cheers,
Martijn

---

Many thanks, Martijn.

Unfortunately, subscription to the journal is not possible until next week due to the admin being on holiday.

Am I correct in thinking the Carlisle find is probably the collar cape from lorica squamata, i.e. we are on similar ground to lined doubling rather than lined and enclosed armour?

Also, are there any indications that the Vize finds are indicative of enclosed armour, i.e. one without an opening to the front or side?

Regards,

You are welcome Stephen. I am certain that the 16th of august is a short wait for such a great journal and moreover, it allows Mike Bishop a well-deserved holiday

 

I am afraid that I do not quite understand your question about the Carlisle find. 

 

In current condition the Vize armour has one closed side with a slit and one open side. You will find a drawing of its construction in my paper (besides a really nice reconstruction painting done by Andrei Negin).

 

Best wishes,

Martijn

[Stephen Bennett]

Yes, I fully indeed to register next week

On the Carlisle find, I was asking what part of the armour the fragment is though to come from. However, you may cover this in your article. So I can wait until next week

Thanks again

[JaM]

One question though.. If Tube and Yoke armor was made of Leather, does that mean Roman Legionaries who were portrayed wearing it (like for example some Caesarean legionaries) were actually using leather armor? So mr D'Amatto was right after all?

[M. Val. Naso]

Wouldn't an integral liner compromise the mail's first and foremost ability to be flexible? Or was the liner attached so it still allowed for full extension of the mail?